Monday, June 13, 2005

Lucky

I really am lucky. I can’t deny it. This blog has become more than I could have ever hoped for. When I first began blogging, I didn’t think anyone would ever come across it. After all, how many people google the words “gay mormon”? Quite frankly, I don’t even understand how my 1,566 visitors succeeded in finding this little corner of the Web. I always wonder how people come across it. Back to my point ... yes, I feel very fortunate that via this blog I’ve been able to share my situation with and receive feedback from wonderful readers like yourself. Andy, I wish that the Internet would have been around back in the day. It really has been so helpful to me.

Speaking to Andy’s comments, I must agree that for me the Church is very much a safe haven, a secure environment for me. However, I have never seen people outside the Church as bad or evil. My parents taught me that Mormons are just as sinful – if not more sinful – than other people. Our religion does not make us better than other people. Stepping outside the religion would be difficult simply from a cultural point of view. My beliefs, values and practices are just different from other people’s.

Hearing that your mother basically abandoned you when you share your struggle with her made my heart ache for you. What a tragic reaction. I don’t think my mother would react that way, but who knows. She is a very devout Mormon – bless her soul. She just might not be able to cope.

By the way, I believe many parents incorrectly assess a child’s homosexual issues as a “minor” problem and expect it to go away if the child simply ignores it for a while. My dad honestly believes it’s something I can get rid of in just a month or two. He’s told me on many occasions that I just need to exercise faith, pray, and repent, and I will overcome my unnatural same-sex attraction. He tells me to find a secluded place and pray for a day or two on end – I’m not joking. He believes that if I were to have a sincere, day-long prayer, God would heal and forgive me like he did Enos in the Book of Mormon. This mentality is very frustrating to me. Though I truly believe in the concept of faith and miracles, I struggle to believe that God will just heal me over night. I doubt this because I’ve pleaded for the past eight years for such healing, but it hasn’t happened. Perhaps I just lack faith – well, that goes without saying. In any case, I’ve accepted that if God wants me to “overcome” my homosexuality, it will be on his timetable, not mine. I believe it will be a process, not an event.

It is truly sad that your mother felt she had to choose between you and the Church. It’s even sadder that she chose the Church. I’m so sorry. I would be devastated were that to happen to me.

Yes, Bill is a wonderful person, one who only wants me to be happy. Thanks again Bill for being so wonderful. Even other readers recognize your wisdom, love and true concern.

You said I am deceiving people living the way I am. I’ve thought a lot about that comment, and I can see your point. I don’t advertise my sexuality. I go on dates with girls. I talk about marriage. Nonetheless, it’s not a blatant deception. I don’t tell people I’m straight. But I don’t tell them I’m gay. For the record, I don’t kiss girls. I haven’t kissed one for more than five years. I really try to be as real as possible. For example, when I talk about the type of person I am attracted to, I never specify gender. Or when I talk about marriage, I always say that I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to get married.

Maybe I should just come out with my sexuality; however, I just can’t justify that sort of action at this point in my life. Andy, thanks for sharing your situation. I appreciate your concern for me. I can tell that you simply want me to find a way to reconcile my beliefs with my sexuality. Thanks.

Texas Chick:

You’re great! Yours was a very unique posting to my blog! I can’t tell you how nice it was to see things from the perspective of a girl who’s dating a homosexual man right now. I’ll be honest: I don’t know how you could not believe in sexuality. Please share your thoughts sometime, if you get a chance. I am just really curious about your comment: “I personally don't believe in being gay or straight.”

I agree with you 100 percent! I don’t think it’s anybody’s right to tell you whether your relationship is real or not. I find it ironic that many so-called “open-minded people” are not open to the idea of a homosexual man having a loving relationship with a woman. If two people are happy living that way, then others should be equally happy for them – if they are truly open-minded, that is.

Great advice, by the way. I will only date women if I want to. I know I have been on one too many charity dates in my life, and it’s probably time I draw the line.

Our struggles are not so different. We both doubt others could love us for who we are – you, overweight; me, homosexual. It’s kind of funny how similar our situations really are.

Why is it that we are all seeking love in this life? What is so great or essential about finding someone to love and be loved by? I wish I were more like a machine ... just work, no emotions. Just kidding. :)

Women who look at gay porn ... interesting. I guess it’s the same thing as straight guys who look at lesbian porn. I’ve just never heard of it. Good to know porn is not just a male issue.

Okay, I’ve got a ton of thoughts floating through my head, but no time to put them into words right now. Unfortunately, things are just going to get worse with my return to school. I hope to get a blog posted at least once a week while back in school.

30 Comments:

Blogger Patmos said...

GM,

I find it as well very, very interesting the responses that you are getting. I think it is great that so many people are trying to pour into your life at such a difficult time. Why it amazes me is because, each vessel is so different. No doubt some of us have some of the same water within us, yet because of the shape of the vessel, it's outpouring is very different.

I know that the day and hour that you live is very confusing and no doubt the weight of it, seems to consume you. Yet what encourages me so much more, is how you are walking under the weight and even more so, how you are allowing yourself to remain open to let the weight speak to you itself.

So many people are controlled by the weight, yet you are in the best way possible controlling the weight.

If you would allow me, I would like to leave you with just a nugget of wisdom.

So many say, that in life, when you are handed a lemon, make lemonade. Yet what if you were never to make lemonade? What if it was your job to see to it that the lemmon got in the right place so that it could be used to make a lemon pie. What am I trying to say?

Well just because things come into our lives, does not mean that we are to allow them to change us, but just maybe to help someone else.

In my life, I have been tempted a great deal with a lot of different things, and I wish I could tell you that I conqured them all, oh how I wish I could tell you that. However I have learned that the better testimony in life is not, I was, but I could have been. I could have been living a gay lifestyle, yet I chose different. I could have been a drug addict, but I chose different. I could have been a thief, but I chose different.

We so easily forget that in our Lord, there is more than what He can remove from us, there is within Him the ability to keep us from it.

I know I sound like a preacher. But even more so, I want to be your friend.

9:58 AM  
Anonymous George said...

Dear Gay Male: You are lucky to be in New York right now, rather than in Utah. It is easier to meet good, decent caring, openly gay friends in New York than in Utah. It is also to easier to find an excellent therapist if you want help in working things out. Ask yourself where you want to be 10 years from now, or 20 years from now. Do you want to fall in love with someone? Do you want intimacy with anther person who knows you, accepts you, loves you? If you want that, you have to come out. Friends can help, a good therapist can help. You have not kissed a gal in five years. Obviously you have little interest in that direction. That will not change. You fantasize about guys. Obviously that is your orientation. That will not change. You need to live the life you dream of, with a guy, or you'll never fall in love, and you'll never know intimicy. Right now you are extremely closeted. When your Dad sees that your computer was logged onto gay porn sites, you lie and tell him it was your roommate. (I understand that; did the same when I wasyounger.) You mislead him. He probably know you're lieing. (When I told my Dad, fnally that it was me, not friends looking at the porn, he said of course he knew that; just as he knew the pot my brother claimed he was "just holding for a friend" was his. Parents often can tell when their kids are lieing, but may choose not to mbarrass their kids by calling them on it every time.) It's better to be can honest gay son than a dishonest one. Own up to it, or tell him it's none of his business, or quit the Covenant Eyes service. But belonging to Covenant Eyes and then lieing when your Dad gets the reports its pointless. It hurts your character. When friends ask who you're attracted to , and you answer without specifying a gender, you are trying to mislead them about who you are. You are ashamed, and don't want them to know. So you're not honest with them. You are more honest vwith the c1500 strangers ho read this blog than the people in your real life, it seems like. That has to change. Believe me, you will be happier when you can live honestly, openly, among friends who accept you as you are. If you never come out of the closet and stay where you are, you will become a plastic Mornon man, a phony hoping others will perceive him as straight. It doesn't work. Nor does marrying a woman. If you're noot even interested in kissing gals, you can't fulfill the reasonable sexual, emotional needs of a gal. But lieing to others and to yourself (or kidding yourself in a very BillClinton-esque way that you're not "blatantly" lieing) is damaging to yourself. It becomes a patern of dealing with people. If you have gay friends who accept you, hang with them. Eventually all of the significant people in your life need to know you as who you are. Or you'll live a very lonely, troubled life. There are riks in opening up to people. Some friemnds will desret you--but they were never real friends. nd you will be better off finding other friends who want to know and befriend the real you. Come on out! It's not so scary as you think. The gay community center can help you find a good therapist.

1:41 PM  
Anonymous George said...

Dear Gay Male: You are lucky to be in New York right now, rather than in Utah. It is easier to meet good, decent caring, openly gay friends in New York than in Utah. It is also to easier to find an excellent therapist if you want help in working things out. Ask yourself where you want to be 10 years from now, or 20 years from now. Do you want to fall in love with someone? Do you want intimacy with anther person who knows you, accepts you, loves you? If you want that, you have to come out. Friends can help, a good therapist can help. You have not kissed a gal in five years. Obviously you have little interest in that direction. That will not change. You fantasize about guys. Obviously that is your orientation. That will not change. You need to live the life you dream of, with a guy, or you'll never fall in love, and you'll never know intimicy. Right now you are extremely closeted. When your Dad sees that your computer was logged onto gay porn sites, you lie and tell him it was your roommate. (I understand that; did the same when I wasyounger.) You mislead him. He probably know you're lieing. (When I told my Dad, fnally that it was me, not friends looking at the porn, he said of course he knew that; just as he knew the pot my brother claimed he was "just holding for a friend" was his. Parents often can tell when their kids are lieing, but may choose not to mbarrass their kids by calling them on it every time.) It's better to be can honest gay son than a dishonest one. Own up to it, or tell him it's none of his business, or quit the Covenant Eyes service. But belonging to Covenant Eyes and then lieing when your Dad gets the reports its pointless. It hurts your character. When friends ask who you're attracted to , and you answer without specifying a gender, you are trying to mislead them about who you are. You are ashamed, and don't want them to know. So you're not honest with them. You are more honest vwith the c1500 strangers ho read this blog than the people in your real life, it seems like. That has to change. Believe me, you will be happier when you can live honestly, openly, among friends who accept you as you are. If you never come out of the closet and stay where you are, you will become a plastic Mornon man, a phony hoping others will perceive him as straight. It doesn't work. Nor does marrying a woman. If you're noot even interested in kissing gals, you can't fulfill the reasonable sexual, emotional needs of a gal. But lieing to others and to yourself (or kidding yourself in a very BillClinton-esque way that you're not "blatantly" lieing) is damaging to yourself. It becomes a patern of dealing with people. If you have gay friends who accept you, hang with them. Eventually all of the significant people in your life need to know you as who you are. Or you'll live a very lonely, troubled life. There are riks in opening up to people. Some friemnds will desret you--but they were never real friends. nd you will be better off finding other friends who want to know and befriend the real you. Come on out! It's not so scary as you think. The gay community center can help you find a good therapist.

1:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Before I came out, I was close friends with a gal I knew from college. We loved hanging out, going to movies, plays. We were inseperable. I half-jokingly said we were such tight friends, we should eventually get married. She told me that she was a lesbian--and she also suspected I was gay but didn't know it yet. I insisted I was not gay, said I cared for her deeply (which was true), and I asked what a girlfriend could do that I couldn't do. She said her girlfriend could kiss her breasts for an hour "with enthusiasm!"--and could perform oral sex till they weree both satisfied without being asked--two things she said a her past boyfriends could never have done. And two things I could never have done. It was her saying "witb enthusiasm."
that told me something important. Even if I could have dutifully made myself kiss her breasts for a solid hours, it would hardly have ever been "with enthusiasm." And she said that those moments gave her the energy I liked so much--her joy for living.

Switching recollections... Later, when I was in Med School, we were shown porn films as part of one class (a number of Med Schools show students some porn, to help you understand human sexuality better, and help mke you more comfortable in talking with future patenients who may be gay, straight, bisexual). The films helped me understand who I was better.

The first times I went out with guys I was EVEY bit as uncomfortable as you are. I was also socially kind of immature, almost retarded, because at 25 I had never seriously dated anyone of either sex. And the college boys I thought were cute had been meeting boyfriends at gay clubs when they were 18. An older gay friend who was very bright (Harvard educatred) gave me my first sexual experience. Afterwards I told him, "I will never do this again." (Famous last words.) He laughed and said, "That's fine, of course. No one's gonna make you do anythimg you don't want to do." And a long time paassed before I had the never to try a second encounter with him. But he's a good friend to this day. If you have gay frends who want to help you, i'm sure they'll introduce yo9u to more, and expand your world at the pace you pick. But you have to jump in the pool! You can't spend life just watching the guys on the street, in the theater, in church. You have to step out a bit. The "night out" you wrote about--even though it was uncomfortable--is a ood step forward. And you'll look back upon it as such.

2:29 PM  
Anonymous Scott said...

First of all, to Patmos,

I was troubled by your terrible experience and I meant to respond right away to that. Sexual and emotional abuse should not be tolerated regardless of the circumstance, whether gay or straight. I HATE the fact that these men took advantage of you, but I have to say I don't believe it was even sexual to them. It was a power and domination thing.

I really am sorry!

I would say that most gay men are not like this, in fact my experience has shown that most gay men are sensitive, caring, and sincerely interested in social equal rights for anyone regardless of sexual orientation.

I loved the previous post by anonymous and his coming out story. My first time at a gay bar was also very ackward, but very soon after I began to feel like I was finally HOME and my ability to share with people who understood my feelings was very comforting.

I also don't think we as Mormons should be so pompous as to think our circumstance is so unique. Over the past 15 years, I have met several men who were in the seminary to become Catholic Priests. Their stories are as troubling to them as our stories are. I have also met many men who had been married to women. Can you imagine their torment as they plan to move on with their lives often alienating their own children. We do not have the market on torment and internal strife.

I also would like you to resolve this soon. I would hate to be reading this same blog in another 6 months with no movement on your behalf. I would love to start reading about growth and movement in your life. Once you remove this noose from around your neck, you will be content and can begin to deal with your career, relationships, etc.

I believe you have much to offer others and would love to see you directing your talents appropriately in an honest and forthright way.

I also agree with anonymous about finding therapy through the gay and lesbian center. You owe it to yourself. I know you mentioned that cost is the inhibitor for you to engage in therapy. You cannot afford not to go down this path. I believe this should be your highest priority right now. We all think we have the answers for you... but you do need help and you should NOT try to resolve this with our experiences!

I know you love the attention you are getting from this blog, but is it really helping you resolve this? I am not convinced! Again, I am afraid this blog will be here in another year. The only thing difference is the contributors will change because most of us will tire with your inaction. Sorry for being so blunt.

You have been given overwhelming support from those who have been through this... I am not sure you really want resolution.

Scott

3:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

GM, If your financial resources are tight, you can find therapists who work on a sliding scale; there are some very good therapists who will charge low rates to those who aren't so well off, and will make it up elsewhere. When I was coming out, I got the number of the gay hotline (many cities have them--check information in your area), and asked the person on the phone if they had any idea how I could find an affordable, supportive therapist. I checked out several before finding one I felt good about seeing; he helped a lot. But saying "I can't afford therapy" is often an excuse; if you look, you might find good therapists you CAN afford. Or ask your gay friends for recommendations. Someone might be able to recommend a counselir or therapist who's helped them.

12:12 AM  
Blogger Patmos said...

I want to say to Scott, thank you for your Kind words, and I do agree with you, it was not about sex, it was about dominance and destruction. I also agree with you about the gay thing or straight thing, eiter circumstance is wrong and should not be allowed or accepted by society.

Then I move on to your comment to GM and to GM as well. First if you will allow me to preface once again. I think by now Scott you realize that I am not out to hurt or "stop" the gay community, it is not that I want to label anyone as hopeless nor a "sinner"

So... I now move on. I think what we are forgetting here is that this is still a struggle, you mention it as a rope around GM's neck. I don't know maybe I should ask GM.... Is this still a struggle to not live a homosexual lifestyle or has this turned into, when, where, and with who?

I know that many believe, that if it is what will make you feel good then do it, is there way of thinking. Yet I think GM has shown great strength in not allowing that to be his motto. I would much much much rather be here next year writting to GM about how to keep the fight going, rather than dealing with one that everyday of his life he is just surrendering to yet another area in his life. I know this sounds old fashioned and that the Preacher in me is coming out, yet for he who knows good and does not do it, then to him that is sin.

Why have we decided what is best for GM? Just because he is tempted and others have chosen to fulfill their lust, does not mean that everyone is meant to fulfill their lust.

I know that I am the only ONE left that is standing on this side of the fence, and I do worry that those on the other side will just write me off and say, what can you expect from a preacher. Yet no doubt GM stands on the top of this fence and from where he is at, he looks to this side and sees a field of grass and looks to the other side and the grass looks so much greener, and, I must warn you GM, it is only Astro Turf.

GM, if you want me to leave you alone, I will. And as much as Scott wants you to dive into your temptation, I must warn you, where you are about to dive is the shallow end, and it will change your life forever. I know, for I have given into temptations and dove into the shallow end so many times and everytime apart of me is paralyzed.

To you who think I am just a preacher, I do not apologize, because that is who I am. Yet if my words have offended you, it was not my desire to do that.

Thank You Scott for your understanding.

8:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you try to learn horseback-riding, you will inevitably suffer some falls, get some scrapes and bruises; it's all part of the process of learning to ride. And the wise instructor will tell you at once, after you've fallen, "Get back on the horse!" Don't think about, don't mull how bad you feel--just get back and try again. So you felt awkward being with someone who knows you're gay. Gwet back on the horse. Go out again, get used to it. There are plenty of happy, fulflled, good, kind, caring gay people out there; meet them. You should be having orgasms daily!

1:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your profile says to ask questions so here you go.

Before joining the church, I had many gay friends and roommates. I am straight. I know a woman in the church who was preparing to be a minister with mcc. She believed so strongly in the church that she left mcc and her lesbianism behind. It hasn't been easy for her. But it would be a lot harder if she did things like hang out with former her gay/lesbian circles.

We all feel compelled and drawn towards things. What you have to ask yourself is, are you an Affirmation mormon or an Evergreen mormon? One wants to believe that whatever you feel is justified, despite God's admonishment to the contrary. The other believes that commandments trump human feelings - be they feelings brought on by actions or genetics. In either case, so long as you continue to dwell on your homosexual feelings they will be forever intense.

Many will tell you these feelings can't be overcome. If that was true then all laws - both God's and man's would be pointless because we simply couldn't obey them. You have to determine what is more important to you. I don't believe you can be both actively gay and actively Mormon (or any type of Christian for that matter). I love my gay friends. But I don't pretend for a minute that lifestyle is favorable to God - no more than being unchaste and straight is. There's plenty of scriptures that condemn both.

3:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear GM: One of the anonymous posters wrote: "Many will tell you these feelings can't be overcome. If that was true then all laws - both God's and man's would be pointless because we simply couldn't obey them." That is a totally illogical statement. Saying we can't change our sexual orientation hardly implies that we cannot follow any laws. And religions, overtime, change laws a lot. I mean, there are laws in the Old Testament that--although they had relevance when first written--are no longer followed by anyone, Christians or Jews. Times change, we can more light. New insights emerge. The largest sect of Judaism in the US, which once was anti-gay, now even officially permits gay Rabbai's. That change has occurred in our lifetime. If you think the Law of Chastity makes sense for you, if you want to spend your whole life with no sexual release (no masturbation, to sexual partner), you can make that choice. But your sexual feelings--your yearnings for closeness with men--aren't going to go away. And if you marry a woman, your desires for men will probably feel even stronger. It's your choice, whatever you want. You know what, deep down, you really want.

12:04 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is not fair to say that a person cannot be both Christian and gay. The Bible is open to interpretation and you must consider the time and circumstances under which it was written. The same book that condemns homosexuality forbids the eating of shell fish, but you don't see the Christian Right trying to shut down Red Lobster. All of my life I have known Christians who were pretty convinced the Mormon Church is a cult and that the Jews killed Christ. These people feel pretty certain about their place in heaven and they feel justified in their position by what they believe the Scriptures says. I believe that churches are a human construction and therefore quite flawed. Therefore, churches should be able to change as they become more enlightened. The entire polygamy issue within the Mormon Church is a prime example.

8:45 AM  
Blogger Patmos said...

Well I am sure every one knew I would have a comment.

I don't understand what the "rush" is all about!!! GM does not need a kidney transplant nor a new heart. Why is there this undertone of urgency. It is not true that if he does not have gay sex within the next 7 days he will turn into a frog. Or have I missed something?

I have been married 11 years and I will be honest with you guys, I don't feel like I am getting all the sex that I deserve or maybe it is just want, I am not sure now. Yet, I am not going to dry up and blow away either. I love sex, I thank God before and after every episode that I have with my wife and sometime during it as well. Yet we are trying to rush GM into something that is not going to expire like milk.

GM, please don't do something, because your body, your mind or what anyone says to you through this comment board. You are your own person, you should live according to that. You are your own person of conviction, you should live according to that. Most of all you are in your own relationship with God, you should live according to that!!

9:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I find Patmos' comments not only repetitive, but more than a little disingenuous and manipulative. He asks, what is the rush, what is the urgency, as if he were only counseling taking things slowly, when his real goal is to deny GM a sex life and a love life altogether. Which seems a little mean, a little selfish. Patmos goes on about how he loves sex,how he thanks God before, after and sometimes during his sexual encounters with his wife of 11 years. He has sex with the partner of his choice. But he wants to deny that satisfaction to GM? GM, not to make a decision is to make a decision. Do you want to remain celibate all your life? The older you are when you come out, the harder it will be and the more difficult it will be to attract the type of partner or partners you want. With each year, your looks will fade a little, and you will be more in the habit of being isolated from people. Some people get so deep into the closet they can never come out. They live like automatons, doing their job, going to church, having only superficial acquantances with people they hope will perceive them as heterosexual (while masturbating/fantasizing about the guys they really want). But they live lives devoid of real closemess to any person, devoid of affection, devoid of love. Patmos loves--and is grateful for--his straight sexual experiences. I feel the same way about my gay sexual experiences. Just exchanging affection--even a kiss on the cheek each day--gives the day added vibrancy and beauty.

The other blogger who claimed to have a friend who was a lesbian but is now happier having supposedly put that behind her in the LDS church does not really know if his friend is really happier, or how long she will be able to stay on this path. Homosexuals trying to maintain heterosexual lives are sometimes maintaing a brittle, tenuous grasp on something that is not natural for them. There are no long-term studies showing that most people can change sexual preferences. Your friend may be telling you what you want to hear right now. The fact that she feels a need to avoid contact with her lesbian friends is itself revealing--as if the desires remain so strong she thinks that even being around friends might prompt her to go back. The extremes some people will go to, in order to deny their true natures, is amazing. GM, you will decide what you want. But you are here because you life, at present, is not working ver well. And you know something has to change. Patmos seems obsessed with the thought that you remain celibate. When he was ready to marry his current wife, if someone had been urging HIM to remain celibrate instead, and had askled him, "Why are you rushing to marry? Why don't you wait (indefinitely)?" he would have told the meddling old biddy to butt out. And if he has no new comments to add, just repetition of what he's already said over and over, he should butt out himself. And fnd something more to do with his life than to work on denying you a chance for happiness, and sexual/emotional fulfiillment. The longer you wait to solve the problem you have, the more years you've lost, living in isolation. Do you want a whole life of loneliness and isolation?

11:59 AM  
Blogger Patmos said...

What is very sad is this....

The Gay community has said of the church that we are always on the defensive, that at any moment we are there to tear down and to isolate, that we are rude and ignorant. I think what has been said by this one that goes by anonymous is the very thing that they have labeled the church as.... Rude and Ignorant.

If you want to speak about repitition then look at the other words of anonymous, he has not once encourage GM to back up and rethink, he has not once encouraged GM that this just might be a thing of mixed emotions, the one thing that he continually says to GM, is get out there and get involved, stop holding your life back.

So that anonymous no longer can play the ignorant card ( I did not say stupid ) Before I married the lady that I now call my wife, I had 3 different individuals come to me, and ask me why such a sudden decision, you two have not even dated, do you really think she is the one? I did not get offensive, but I calmly sat down with each one of them and shared my heart and my love for my soon to be wife. I did not try to belittle them or ask them to butt out of my life. Was I a virgin when I got married, no, I had tasted the "wine" of many girls in H.S. When I mentioned that I thank God for sex, it was not a serious comment, I guess I should have put a smily face beside it, so others would not think of me at this Hitler Sex Guard.

Why is it anonymous, that you can continue your counsel of get out there, get involved, you need to stop writing about it and take part in it, or you will end up old, and looked over by the gay community and I cannot offer a stop sign.

I have dealt with the gay community for years, and the very thing that the majority tells me is that the "Christian" isolates them and pushes them away, that we have this hidden agenda and we believe that Aids is the curse upon their sinful lifestyle. Yet when one comes among them (such as myself) without hate or hidden agenda you show the side of anger and your ignorance when you try to make someone that is not like you; out to be against you.

I am not trying to love you or GM out of a gay lifestyle, I am just trying to let it be known that there is another option, that there is another lifestyle, that not everyone that has lust in their heart for another man is gay and should be in the gay lifestyle. There are many this past 2 years of my life that I had a lot of anger and bitterness against, yet it did not make me commit the sin of murder or to respond back so that they would suffer.

Just because you kiss or get kissed by another man does not mean that GM has to follow your footsteps anymore than he has to follow mine.

What is sad is that as GM stands at the fork in the road with two different people on each side of the street, you have chosen to make me out to be the freak show. As if this is an election year and I am your opponent.

12:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Patmos: What you have written fromn the start is rude and offensive to gays. You wrote, for example: "I could have been living a gay lifestyle, yet I chose different. I could have been a drug addict, but I chose different. I could have been a thief, but I chose different." Obviously, you are associating being gay with being a drug addict or a thief; to even put the notions in the same breath reveals how you think of homosexuality, and it is offensive. To say you mean no offense by such words is unconvincing; it is just passive aggression, and anyone can see through it. It is good that you have satisfying sexual experiences ith your wife. You tell us you were not a virgin when you married, that you're glad you "tasted the wine" of other partners first. Which makes it seem a littl hypocritical for you to keep counseling GM to avoid any sexual experiences himself. What is the point of rubbing it in the face of GM (who has no sex life) that you are appy with yours? But want him to have no sex life. I have no idea if GM will be happy wih what you call "the gay lifestyle" (a term, I find offensive, as if it is a "lifestyle"--something less than a life). What various posters--some annymous, some not--have suggested is that he take steps, baby-steos if need be, to find out what works for him. That's just common sense. It does not prejudge the outcome.

1:02 PM  
Blogger Patmos said...

This is where we stand on different sides of the road. I chose to have a hetrosexual lifestyle, you don't think it is a choice. You think that one is born or designed this way.

I honestly believe that the gay community and the straight community will never be able to live together in complete unity, until one or the other does away with religion. No doubt there are those who claim christanity and have gay friends, I do as well. That is not what I speak about however.

It is a shame that we are so divided, when if there is ever a time that we need one another it is now.

Yet, I do not understand why, well I was going to say gay lifestyle, but you don't like that word. So now I don't know what to call it. Yet what I do not understand is why we so easily offend the gay community. If hardship and persecution has done anything to myself it has made me stronger, it has given me the ability to let someone express their opinion and then not be-little them.

I did not brag about my sexual lifestyle in my last comment, I was stating a fact, I was asked, If I would have been approached by someone about my marriage, how would I feel. I had been, I did not marry for sex, was my point. I don't think a gay man or lesbian should join together for sex either. I mean, I love sex, but gratification does not run my life.

I guess my thing is this?

Why can't GM struggle with this? Why is it that he MUST prove himself. I have not once said to GM that he needs to get out in the hetro lifestyle and it will prove to him that it is truly what he wants. Yet the voice that he does hear, is that, you got to get back upon the horse again, you got to get back out their and date and live like I do.

I apologize if my words are the same. Yet we don't belittle the caution light, because it continues to flash. Just for the recod the caution light does not represent destruction ahead, it just says.... You don't have to do something right now.

I think the greatest thing for a person is that they wrestle for what they achieve. It causes one to appreciate and gives them the power to face those that are in opposition of them.

This is not a matter of who is right.... Anonynomus or Patmos, what this is about is a very young man, that all his life he has had a certain values established in him, it is his foundation. One side is telling him to keep building on that foundation and the other is telling him, to replace his foundation.

I NEVER said I was happy with the fact that "I tasted the wine" I just said that I had. I was not bragging about a lifestyle, I was just clearly putting it like it was.

You know what it has boiled down too is the fact that neither one of us wants GM to live a life of regret's. Yet, honestly who are we to tell him what he will regret?

1:36 PM  
Anonymous Scott said...

Wow....

I have to side with "anonymous" in this debate. As I re-read the original post from GM, I was amused by the comment:

"For the record, I don’t kiss girls. I haven’t kissed one for more than five years."

Come on.... GM, you are at your sexual peak. Your only release is porn and masturbation.... If you have not even kissed a girl for over 5 years... YOU ARE GAY!! There will be exhileration within you when you kiss a man. It will feel right.

Just as Patmos has the right to love whom he wants, so do we as gay men. My decision to love a man is one I will NEVER regret!

6:46 PM  
Anonymous Epicurus said...

I found your blog today from another forum. I'm amazed that you keep up a blog called gaymormon and openly admit that you're going to BYU. Don't you worry about your bishop or the Honor Code office finding out? I only ask because I am also a BYU student with a secret, though it's a bit different than yours. You see, I am a non-believer. In the church, that is. I am a returned missionary, but I don't believe in any of the unique doctrines of the Mormon church. Sure, I believe in hard work, the golden rule, dedication to family, and all that--but obviously, none of those principles are the exclusive domain of LDS, Inc. I am a skeptic, a doubter, an intellectual, an apostate--whatever you prefer. I'm fascinated by the history and psychology of religion, but I personally do not believe in any gods, prophets, holy books, or an afterlife. I do believe that our lives have purpose, though it is we who create that purpose. I believe that morality (not just sexual morality, but ethics and behavior as a whole) is important. I spend most of my free time reading and pondering topics of philosophy, history, religion, and science. You could say I'm on a quest for truth, but I've come to realize that there are very few absolutes out there. Most of the time, on the really deep subjects, I just have to admit that I don't know, and probably never will.

It's a tough secret to keep sometimes. My choice of reading material certainly raises some eyebrows from time to time, though only my immediate family members and a few close friends know what I really think. Still, here I am at BYU, Mormon orthodoxy HQ. I keep the Honor Code, attend church meetings, and generally go through the motions. I certainly don't voice my opinions in church. I'm not out to (de)convert anyone. I'm concerned that my bishop or other powers that be would have a problem with an "atheist" occupying one of the coveted seats at BYU. Still, being a non-believer is probably not as socially unacceptable in Mormon culture as being homosexual. I can't imagine how uncomfortable that must be.

Perosonally, I don't think there is anything wrong with homosexuality. Hell, I'm sure there were plenty of gay missionaries that I never knew about. Having read through only a small portion of your blog, I do think it's unfortunate that you torment yourself so much over this issue. The church's stance on gays (along with most of the Religious Right) is wrong, and I think in the long run they'll realize it's untenable. They used to think blacks were "cursed" too, you know. I find it almost absurdly ironic that a church with a foundational history of non-traditional marriage (polygyny and polyandry) has set itself up as the poster child for "traditional families."

At any rate, I think you are doing the right thing, getting your feelings out in the open and dialoguing with others. I just hope you are very careful to keep personally identifying information to yourself. I would hate to see you face the full-on oppression inherent in Mormon culture against those who don't fit the norm. You have my sympathy. I know something about living a double life, and it's not easy. We all want to be the best we can be and create a happy future for ourselves. From my perspective, it's unfortunate that you feel so much conflict over desires I view to be as natural as the desire to eat. All things in moderation, of course, and if you personally feel like pornography or masturbation are adversely affecting your life, by all means restrain yourself. But I really think the church's all-or-nothing advice that we should pretend not to have sex drive is, well, screwed up. Why beat yourself up over something so trivial? I would be far more concerned about someone in his 20s who had no sexual outlet whatsoever.

Best of luck to you, however you decide to proceed.

8:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey it's nice to see a gesture of Do you worry your Bishop will find out YOUR identity when you post? If it's a real worry, have you--or the Gay Mormon blogger--ever consideed transferring to another college. Just curious. I don't think they could find out the identity of you or the Gay Mormon blogger; but I'm no expert.

Patmos, it is good that you have someone in your life (your wife) with whom you can share sexual intimacy, emotional intimacy, a sense of sharing life's joys and hardships; those of us rooting for Gay Mormom to come out simply want him to have a chance to experience, with a partner suitable for him, the same rewards of life that you enjoy, and most of us (gay or straight) enjoy, or aspire to.

9:40 PM  
Blogger RoastedTomatoes said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5:32 AM  
Blogger Patmos said...

I guess my issue and probably my ignorance is this.

Is one gay, just becuase he has feeling's for one of the same sex, or does the "act" may he/she gay?

If that is the case, than all that can be said is that he/she has been tempted to live a gay lifestyle. I know that some hate that word... gay lifestyle. As far as we all know, GM still has the option to not taste of that fruit (so to speak).

What I fell has happened with many is that they have forgotten how they once struggled with the idea of being gay, they have become so involved in it's actions, that now it is normal. Now I know I am going to be nailed on that comment, but I refer to my own self as well, when I made the decision to become sexualy involved, at 1st because of my foundation growing up, it was WRONG!!! but the more I become apart of it, well, let's just say, it become apart of my everyday life.

You know in all honesty, I am not sure that if I will continue in posting to GM's site. Because of the fact that the one thing the gay community has so cried out for, is... JUST TRY TO UNDERSTAND US!!! Yet I wonder if that should not be the cry of the hetrosexual community. I am labeled here as the idiot, as the one who has no clue of what he is saying, no respect is given, just the hunt to find something I said and turn it into an insult.

GM, You know how I feel, you know how I wish you the best in life. May you have ears to hear and a heart to do what you Know (not feel) what you know is right.

6:59 AM  
Anonymous hellmut said...

GM,

Have you read Carol Lynn Pearson's autobiography Good Bye, I love You? Both she and her daughter married gay husbands in the temple. You will find it worth your while.

Cheers, Hellmut

9:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Patmos, none of us have forgotten what we went through in the coming-out process, which is why we're trying to help GM, if we can (if he wants it). It is good that you remember how you were conditioned to believe that all sex was wrong (the foundational beliefs you were raised with), but--if I understand you correctly-- you overcame such hangups, came to accept sexuality as normal, and found more fulfillment in life. But it sounds like you hve not questione your conditioning--the foundational beliefs you were raised with--regarding gay sex; you still just feel it is wrong, because you were raised that way. Like GM. Like many of us. But if he is to find fulfillment with partner, he--like you--will probably have to overcome some of his conditioning. If all of his fantasies and emotions are male-directed, he'll never find love with a woman. But can with a man. I just wish him as much happiness as it sounds like you have with your spouse.

9:55 AM  
Blogger Randy said...

I came across this blog via a link somewhere else. Anyhow, GM, best of luck with your issues. My advice would be to finish up at BYU, if you're near the end of your time there, then find yourself a man to share yourself with. Sexuality is not just about sex; it's also about sharing your hopes, your aspirations, your soul. The LDS Church doesn't seem to get that, but it's totally obsessed with sex, sex, sex. But I'm a rank apostate, so what do I know?

12:27 PM  
Anonymous Robert said...

It's wonderful seeing so much activity on your blog, GM. People are offering you lots of good input on line, which you'll process at your own rate. I unederstand the appeal of putting your thoughts on a website and seeking counsel from anonymous strangers. So many of us have been through what you've been through, we can hopefully help. But ultimately I think you'll be better off--uncomfortable though it may be at first--talking these issues out, face to face, with real live gay friends. The next time you feel like getting together with the friend you mentioned in your last entry, don't go out and watch a show, stay in and talk. Cook a meal together a his home, or walk in a park. But talk, rather than watch a play or movie or concert. All the issues you raise here you can deal with better, if you engage in give-and-take with a real person. Just being accepted, in the flesh,as you relate these concerns can help. And when you re ready, if you want, you can try semsual--not sexual things--like massage--to help you get used to touching and being touched, and feeling comfortable in your own skin. But being with gay friends--where you don't have to lie or pretend--is a huge help. I remember that in the temple recommend interviews they'd ask, are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man. That's prime requirement. A big question. You can be honest with an understanding gay friend, mores than with people at work or college. I'm glad your friend offers you free theater vtickets (how come no one offers me free tickets?). But talking with a friend, getting a pat on the back or two, is more important right now than seeing shows. A good gay friend will want to help. I'm sure he knows you're uncomfortable. He's been there. So have I. If you ever need to discuss anything privately, we can do so by Email; just let me know. But starting with an actual gay friend in person will help you a lot more. The next meeting with him will be 10 times better than your date to see a show, I'm sure. Good luck.

3:27 PM  
Blogger Mike said...

Hi GM,

Love your blog. Just read a couple of postings though and was alarmed particularly at damaging comments "in sheep’s wool" by one poster.

Your situation is near and dear to my heart. I was at BYU too, went on my mission, and returned to school, silently, sincerely struggling the whole time with my homosexuality. Afraid to say a word, feeling incredible self-loathing, fear and anxiety over it. Dating girls, hoping something would kick-in. It got too much and finally I tried to off myself. Roommates found me and got me to the hospital, big dramatic ordeal but I survived. I am so glad that you have this blog outlet so you don't have to deal with this in an isolated way. Good for you.

I read Patmos' measured, kind comments and want to give him the benefit of the doubt; that he is looking out for your best interests and not just after a notch on his Jesus belt (another fag soul saved).

In his gentle prose Patmos equates a "decision" to be gay with a decision to be a drug addict or a thief. Huh? He says being gay is giving into lust and surrendering to some lower state. It is making lemonade where celibacy or sleeping with woman would be making lemon pie. He is saying the ugliest thing in just the nicest possible way - being gay is bad, suppressing your homosexuality is good.

Being gay is not something "brought into" your life to change you GM any more than puberty is brought into your life to change you. It is who you are, part of you - the wonder of you. Living your life honestly and being who you are is the lemon pie, not just making lemonade. It is a beautiful and absolutely natural thing despite how kindly and sweetly others want to tell us it is perverted. You can be fulfilled and have a beautiful life as an openly gay man GM.

Imagine how ridiculous this advice given to one of your straight friends: Don't give into the lust of pursuing a relationship with a woman - that would be like being a drug addict. Don't surrender to heterosexuality, instead embrace celibacy and suppress your natural attraction to women for the rest of your life. That's just dumb.

Every heterosexual your age is out there dating and learning socialization and intimacy that is part of being a human being. There are degrees of lust that absolutely have emotional ramifications (whether homosexual or heterosexual) if pursued. Don't make out on a first date if you aren't emotionally ready for it. Don't sleep with every person you meet. If you are in a committed trusting relationship, don't abuse that trust by dating someone else. That's common sense - don't give into lust that would lead to these negative emotional outcomes (for you or the other person).

Patmos' ideas sabotage your positive emotional outcomes of normal dating. We feel excited and happy about the cute boy that just asked us out - (natural normal experience), but Patmos wants to make it dirty and perverted so it becomes harmful emotionally. No one does that to the straight kids - so they get to proceed and have healthy social development.

We listen and try to date girls but that doesn't fulfill us and creates more insecurity. We just can't win.

People like Patmos assume that gay people automatically have no morals. That we throw the baby out with the bathwater when we lay down the LDS baggage - that we are the drug addicts and thieves of the sexual realm.

There are degrees of lust that should be pursued -it is our body doing it's job. For some people, kissing on the first date is okay. For anyone, feeling an immense physical and emotional attraction to someone, mutually expressed through spending time together, intimate or not, is a normal, wonderful, healthy thing. Not doing that, you must agree, would be a pitiful existence. I am not attaching a gender here because it is the same for a heterosexual or homosexual - yet people want to make our experience dirty while the straight kids are oh so cute (and they are but so are we).

Gay people can choose to be promiscuous just as straight people can. They can't choose however what sex they are attracted to, just as straight people can't.

Finish BYU - for your future, you need that degree. Concentrate on positive experiences in your life now, in platonic friendships. You live in a hostile environment sexual-orientationally speaking so keep your head low but don't feel any shame. So ride it out and finish your degree there, follow the rules - don't ask don't tell - get the degree.

Most of all be safe and take care of yourself. Don't lose it like I did. I'm so glad you are able to get these mostly supportive messages rather than be all alone with this. You may not see it now but there is a fantastic world of acceptance out there for you - and you are beautiful and wonderful.

2:48 PM  
Blogger mike said...

well gaymormon, i just read your entire blog over the past few days. riveting stuff.

i would second the suggestion that you not be so candid until you graduate from the Y. you don't want to get in any kind of battle w/ the honor code office because you'll lose.

not much advice i can offer you since i'm a straight-leaning guy, but hang in there and don't beat yourself up too much. and if you can don't take the church stuff so seriously. it's just another church, and although it may seem like it offers something unique and beautiful, it's really not a healthy influence in your life right now.

and i'm not sure why you think you have a porn addiction. addiction is a strong word. more like you enjoy porn. addiction implies a compulsive overuse or dependency on something. if you can't function w/o porn then you're addicted, but if you merely like to look at it from time to time then that's all it is, a hobby. maybe an immoral hobby from the mormon POV, but not necessarily an addiction.

best of luck, i'll check in on you from time to time.

10:41 PM  
Anonymous C.D. said...

It does my heart good to see all the positive energy you're attracting. And to see all the widsom that the Mike's and Scot's are sharing. It makes me feel good about the world. You did good thing, creating this blog. Best of luck... C.D.

12:33 AM  
Anonymous Elle said...

Hello GM. I just found your site for the first time today. I must say that I really enjoy reading it! I am an 18 year old lesbian mormon. Both my girlfriend and I are LDS and it gives me so much comfort knowing that we aren't alone out there. I cannot wait to share this site with her. Thank youi so much for being so open about your experiences, you really give a lot of young gay lds and non lds teens, I hope you realize what a good influence you have. Thank you so very much!!

-Elle

12:46 AM  
Anonymous C. D. said...

Dear GM: Here is some highly recommended reding for this summer. Order a copy of the book PECULIAR PEOPLE: MORMONS AND SAMESEX ATTRACTION. You can find used copies through Amazon for under $10. Here is the link, if you want to copy and paste it. But if the link doesn't work, just look it up on Amazon or at any bookstore.:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1560850469/qid=1119445603/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_ur_2/103-4670926-7292630?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

That is a great place to start. You might also want to pick up a used paperback of "The Homosexual Matrix," one of the best all-around books on homosexuality--a classic in the field. By C. A. Tripp. It's easy to find ion libraries, too.

Not dealing with gay themes, but wrth reading for a better understanding of Mormon origins is Grant Palmer's "An Insider's Guide to Mormon Origins."

Anyway, those are some book recommendations for today. --C.D.

8:26 AM  

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