Wednesday, March 22, 2006

Doc wants to pray

Things are going well. I didn't lose anything tonight, and we discussed my limits. To this point, he has been more than understanding. I can't believe how patient he has been with me. I didn't think any gay guy would be so willing to wait and go slow. As the doc has pointed out, one week is like one year in gay dating time, so we're doing pretty good. :) Ha! Honestly, we are doing well. I can't even begin.

Get this: he even asked me to teach him how to pray! He openly admits that he's not religious, but he said he'd like to feel more of a connection with God. I love that he's not threatened by religion or spirituality. He has been more than understanding and kind regarding my beliefs. I sometimes have a hard time with gay guys who hate religion so badly they twitch when the topic arises. Sure, I can appreciate their perspective, but sometimes the bitterness can be overwhelming.

For the record, I have not been pushing him to be religious, exercise faith, or start praying. I jokingly told him that he'd better pray the concert we're going to this Friday is pitch black; otherwise, we won't be touching much. (Yeah, still not comfortable with a lot of PDA, but neither is the doc.) After I said that, he said he'd like to learn how to pray. I really was impressed that he would even ask me to teach him. Anyhow, I'll let you know how that lesson goes. We haven't had it yet.

Oh yeah, so I'm going to a concert with two of my straight friends, and the doc is coming with. The two friends don't know we're gay and dating. That's why we are going to be acting very straight that night. Of course, my friends are going to find out sooner or later; nonetheless, I don't want them to find out at the concert when I introduce them to my new boyfriend. For now, they can just believe that the doc and I are only friends. If my two friends are perceptive, they probably already know I'm gay anyway.

In any case, I think both the doc and I are praying for a pitch black concert.

41 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm confused. Will you be giving him missionary lessons while contemplating the "missionary position?"

6:50 PM  
Blogger el veneno said...

I think all the anonymous posters on your blog should link to their own blogs or at least give themselves a name. Without knowing the person behind the comment it's hard to tell if comments like the last one are meant to be humorous or smart-alec.

12:18 PM  
Anonymous Chip said...

Hey, this is Chip, Gay Mormon. I'm really happy that you two guys have found each other. It will be easier, in time, when you can be open with all your friends. And OF COURSE they will be some gay guys ho will go as slow (or fast) as you want to go. You have o overcome thinking in stereotypes. Guys who love you will want to wrk things out to mutual satisfaction, if possible. Have fun! Good luck! you sound so much happier in recent posts than when you first started writing; it's nice to see this growth. I wish you well, always.
CHIP DEFFAA

3:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Does El Veneno have a comment? I posted the first one, and was trying to make a point through humor. Read my original comment once more... LIGHTEN UP, it's OK to laugh :) (I see a slight grin forming on the corners of your mouth). I know you can do it!!

I agree with Chip; I'm happy, GM, that you have met such a nice, thoughtful person. But I am concerned because you seem to be sending this guy mixed messages (praying for the theater to be dark so you can do "sinful" things?). You are introducing him to the tenets of a rabidly homophobic religion, while at the same time your actions are taking you away from it. You're going two directions at once. That degree of cognitive dissonance may become very confusing to the doc (and may push him away). It certainly is to me. Is it to anyone else?

For those who want to know, I don't have a blog, but have a profile (with pics!!) on gaycom named tbirdguy58. I'm not a smart-ass jerk, but am a nice guy and I hope my input has some value.

Thanks, GM, for not excluding anonymous comments as some others do (hint.. hint.. others). We don't all have blogs and it's good to get ideas from all points of view. Shutting them out is a habit some get from the Mormon church. Uh oh, now I'm really in trouble... :)

3:45 PM  
Blogger el veneno said...

no worries tbirdguy58. I was just using that comment of yours as an example. It's hard to read between the lines in the blogger world.
The little :) helps me see you're trying to be funny.
As for anonymous comments, I allow them on my blog too (I guess the mormon church hasn't washed my brain completely yet).
GM-- I totally understand where you're at with going two directions at once and I think you're fine. I've liked having gay friends who also have an lds background so they can understand that aspect but sounds like this guy is willing to work with you so you're good. Luck dude.

6:10 PM  
Blogger Brother Tim said...

Well it's about time that I enter the gay fray. I am Tim, GayMormon's brother. Yes, you have read about me in previous blogs. I have had long discussions with my brother in an environment that is appropriate and nuturing for the serious nature of this topic--namely, face-to-face and heart-to-heart. Until now, I have resisted the temptation to logon and blog in response to all you armchair quarterbacks, radio psychologists, and tarot card reading, advice-giving, nameless, faceless, and very, very distant persons. I'll be frank. A blog is not the spot to discuss something as serious and more importantly, as personal as what my brother has chosen to share. Buthe has. And given the fact that this blog and all the participants herein, logon under a guise of giving my brother a variety of opinions--I must opine. With just a few exceptions, the advice has only been from 3 camps: gay, gayer, and gayest. Yet for some reason everyone seems to think that there exists an open air of intellectual viewpoints coming in from all sides of the sexual spectrum.
I have chosen to express my deepest feelings and thoughts directly to my brother. It was much easier when he lived with me, but now that he is on his own (as he should be) it becomes increasingly more difficult to speak with him as freely. Nonetheless, I will not start giving my brother such personal advice and sentiments via blogging. I will reserve that for a maturely appropriate environment.
This discussion is for the rest of you that pretend to know my brother so well and to be so wise in your assessment of his peculiar situation. In fact you are writing me right now wining about how I am a homophobe and how you have already been there yourself; thereby achieving that grand self-qualification as a gay therapist. None of you have ever met my brother. None of you have looked into his eyes, heard the pain in his voice, or seen the fear in his visage. Yet many continue on in this charade of psychotherapy and self-discovery. The comments (with some notable exceptions) are predominantly anti-mormon church. Why? Because the Church actually has the audacity to take a moral stance on an issue and stick to it! The Church is so bold as to not roll over and change their entire theology regarding the family to accomodate some very distraught gay members. How repugnant of them?
Now, I've had a lot of sympathy for gay people for many years. I have some very close friends and patients of mine (yes I'm a "doc" too) that are gay. I respect, admire and love them. With my brother situation, I have understood much more deeply the internal struggle. I would not wish such torment upon anyone.
What I find fascinatingly disgusting is the ease at which the proselyting crowd of gay men contemptuous dismiss his desire to pursue a religion that he has enjoyed the entirety of his life--and still enjoys--and superficiously state that life will be better when he finally has sex with men. You idiots cannot even pretend to know how his life will be under a fully gay lifestyle.
And the facts are clear you will not be there if your "prophecies" are not met and your blase predictions of happiness and joy do not materialize under this gay lifestyle. You discount and don't even acknowledge the fact that many gay men are very unhappy inspite of several relationships. You ignore the fact that gay men still have high suicide rates in the Castro district (a friend of mine is the Fire Chief for the district--and yes he is pulling out dozens of suicides a year).
You won't be there if he contracts the many STD's that are still much more prevalent in the gay population (when compared to similiar socioeconomic stratifications). You won't be there if God forbid my brother is murdered in a fit of rage (as a close friend of the family--former Oakland Chief Detective said happens with great regularity among gay men in the Bay Area).
No you are painting this rosey, no consequence life as a gay man. Nothing bad ever happens. The only bad out there is the Mormon church that denies you membership when you engage in gay sex.
But I will be there. I will be helping my brother. I will be helping him pick up the pieces, mending his life, and restoring it to whatever order he can. Now, in the deepest depths of my heart, I wish no evil upon any gay man/woman--especially my brother. But the facts are clear. Choice brings consequence. And some of the consequences of a gay life are still quite serious. I can hear the arguments now about how happy you are in your relationship, and how life became so easy once you left the closet. But the fact remains--none of you can predict my brother's life.
I am very convinced of one thing that had not crossed my mind previous to reading this blog and it's superficial commentaries. This is the fact that although most of you engage religion in your discussions in one form or another, none of you acknowledge the fact that being gay is a religion of its own.
Why you have your own set of missionaires? Gay Hawaii Dave and others that have been there and tasted of the "virtues" of gay sex and have no greater calling than to make converts of others (especially those damn Mormons that opposed same-sex marriage in Hawaii). You have your own set of beliefs and principles, which if adhered to, you believe will bring happiness, joy, and peace in this life.
Many of you have said that God condones your gay lifestyle and that it is men or the religion of men that errantly despise gay sex. It's funny to me that those that are religious never bring up any canonized scripture to support their position vis-a-vis the whole God condones gay sex argument.
And yes, let's be quite clear about what is at the heart of this discussion--it's sex. Nearly every person that opines, encourages my brother to make the next step. None of you have encouraged him to live a lifestyle of celibacy in a relationship with another man. It is always about sex. Don't kid yourself that it is not. Perhaps the only person that is largely unconcerned about having to have sex, is GayMormon himself.
Well I can already hear the epithets from those I have offended. I can almost see the steam coming from both ears. Voodoo dolls are being constructed now of Brother Tim.
But the facts are clear guys....I love my brother, I care about my brother, I pray for my brother, I cry for my brother, and I will continue to lose sleep over my brother's heartache and pain. You guys don't care about my brother and don't give me this crap that you do... You only care about the Gay Religion.
If my brother were to decide today that he wants to be a celibate, gay mormon in full fellowship in his chosen Church, most of you would turn on him in a heart beat(I realize some readers are in the same state of confusion and pain as my brother--and I pray God may help you too). Whereas, me, I will love him regardless of his choice.
Well enough. I'm tired and bored with writing on this subject. I will save my serious comments for one-on-one discussion with my brother.

12:43 AM  
Anonymous Dare said...

GM, I have to say I sorry to see things have progressed to this point. It must be hard enough to write down and publish your inner most thoughts for the world to see without having an argument break out about who cares for whom the most.

Despite what your brother says (I’m assuming for the moment that brother tim isn’t some impostor) I think you know that by and large most of the comments here are sincere and heartfelt. From what I can see most of the posters are motivated by empathy, because they see something of themselves in you and your struggles. And while not everything that has been suggested is necessarily right for you, I still believe the comments were made with the sincere hope that they could some how be of benefit.

Your brother is right that few if any people here will end up being as supportive of you as a family member or a deep personal friend. But that doesn’t make their experiences and perspectives any less valid. Indeed, the fact that they don’t run in the same circles as you gives you the benefit of perspectives that you otherwise wouldn’t have had access to. I think you should take advantage of that.

3:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tim, you seem very arrogant, very disturbed, and very presumptuous. For starters, how dare you presume that none of us have ever met your brother in person (I, for one, certainly have). And how dare you presume that those who have not met him in person cannot offer opinions asvalid as yours? How dare you presume that you will always be closer to him, because you are family, than any gay man he meets? Many people bond more tightly, over time, with their chosen partners or spouses (whether straight or gay) than with family. Many gay men find, in the end, that they get more support from a partner in a sexual relationship than from any blood relative. None of us can predict anyone's future. But to understand how arrogant and uninformed your commentary sounds, imagine that you were writing about a straight brother trying to decide to between staying celbate all his life and looking for a woman to love. You could make every one of the same claims you now mke, that if he gives up celibacy he faces risks of STDs, risks of being beaten or killed by an abusive lover, emotional harm. You could claim you will always be there to pick up the pieces when things go wrong. But talking about being there to pick up the pieces when things go wrong sounds like you want things to go wrong. You could have written you're ready to support your brother, however things develop. You should hope he finds happiness and fulfillment with whatever path he chooses. Of course there are some gay men with unhappy lives, just as there are some straight men with unhappy lives. But you seem determined to ignore that there are also sexually active gay men leading very happy, fulfilling, ethical lives. If your brother becomes one of them, I hope you wil be proud of him. And not muttering about how some small minority of gay men are killed by abusive partners. I wish your brother well.

4:39 PM  
Blogger Dave said...

I can't believe your brother made that comment. I'm sure he loves you but just like my family he doesn't understand what you're going through. He says that none of us knows you so we can't give you advice. HE doesn't know what it's like to be gay and grow up Mormon, so actually even though we don't know you personally we have a better idea of what you're going through. I will continue to congratulate you on acting on your feelings and I hope that you don't listen to your brother.

4:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dare,
How come when someone posts an opinion different than yours, you say that an argument has broken out?? Sounds like a different point of view makes you think outside of yourself for an minute or two...

Now go save the little "rat-monsters"...

5:29 PM  
Blogger Dave Walter said...

GM, all I'll say is this: It's unfair and detrimental for you to be put in the position of having, in this blog, a nuclear family member pitted against your gay family members ("We ARE Family"). Please don't feel compelled to post responses to either your brother's comments or the gay bloggers' comments.

8:15 PM  
Anonymous Matt said...

I don't usually comment but I felt compelled to. I wanted to say that I'm glad Tim chose to join the debate because he's right in that it is very one-sided. He is also right that it is very personal for his brother and I was going to point out to GM that if his brother can find his blog then his boyfriend certainly could also. Especially seeing how he has expressed curiosity about Mormonism,he is gay, and he probably has access to Google. All I'm saying GM is that you should be careful about what you say about your relationships. I know you wouldn't want to unintentionally hurt anyone.

I was surprised to see Tim suggest a celibate relationship with another man. Most straight people assume that it's all about sex and that two men can't have the same type of intimate companionship as a hetero couple. I find this offensive. I must agree with Tim that many of the comments seem to be encouraging GM to "take the next step" however I would disagree with Tim that this is because they are gay. Try finding a sitcom on TV that doesn't have premarital sex. Most of these are hetero shows so this isn't unique to the Gay community. If GM were heterosexual he would most likely be waiting for marriage to have sex so I think part of GM's struggle (I could be wrong) has been to determine what point is the equivalent in a gay relationship. I actually find it ironic that in Canada (that's where I'm from) gays can now legally marry. Now I can't excuse premarital sex because I'm gay and can't marry my partner because I can. I will take issue with the celibacy comment. Paul in the New Testament encourages us to remain single so we can better serve God however he recognizes that not everyone can control their urges so they should marry to avoid sin. For GM neither a hetero marriage nor a celibate life will satisfy his urges (based on past entries, he can correct me if I'm wrong). I would suggest chastity as an alternative. Chastity is different than celibacy in that sex still occurs but only within a marriage relationship. Well I think I've written more than enough for now and GM, I'm sure you have a lot to consider. I wish you happiness in whatever decision you make. I'm facing many of the same ones myself and even if you end up deciding differently than me I still value your point of view.

Matt

9:39 PM  
Anonymous Brother Tim said...

Brother Tim here,

Just as I supposed several of you posted blogs that were full of the predictable whining crap. "We are your Gay family", "you don't understand what it is like", "[I'm] disturbed". I must give my brother credit for the fact that in our personal conversations he is more mature and open to discussions from outside points of view--more open than alot of the comments I read on the blog--just since I posted last night.

Am I arrogant? Perhaps in certain things when it comes to all of you people that have never met my brother, nor do you hold a valid license to practice psychology/psychiatry or any other form of family therapy degree. I acknowledge that one of you has met my brother. Oh that makes you an expert does it? That qualifies you as a person competent to discuss one of the most personal issues that a person can have. That means I am automatically qualified to deal with my friend's childhood sexual abuse history because I've shaken her hand and I care. Ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You were not there to hold him as a baby (I am 9 years older), watch him grow up, love him, feel for him, and hope the best for him in everything that he does. And I'll bet my house on the fact that you won't be there if it all comes crashing down. I will.

As I have told my brother, GayMormon, this blog is not the environment nor the venue to be soliciting advice in serious personal matters. It IS the equivalent of the Dr. Laura-type psychology that is presented. Yes, I like Dr. Laura as a model of ethical behaviour, but I think her show is the STUPIDIST on the radio. Because she is giving serious advice to people that have complicated problems and she has only had about 30 seconds airtime with them. And her callers are even more stupid than her show to be asking for advice in a 2 minute spot!

This blog is NO different!!!! Serious, life altering decisions will be made. And my brother --- against my recommendations -- continues to post such deep emotions and actions.
If I were to share the details of my sex life with my wife in the way my brother has, and my wife were to find out (or if I were single and my girlfriend found out) they would be very understandably upset--in fact they would send me packing.

My advice has always been to my brother--shut this blog down. Quit sharing such seriously personal details with complete strangers. I'm sorry, how ignorant can a person be to state that this online blog community is [my brother's] gay family.
(This ironically is at the heart of why I disagree with the whole gay marriage issue--the idea that someone could refer to nameless, faceless, bloggers as "family" shows how warped and meaningless the title of family is to them. I digress seriously however in bringing up gay marriage--yet many will engage me on that discussion as well.)

GayMormon should shut this blog down. He should rely on family and close friends for discussion--and yes ecclesiastical advice as well (I know some are just fuming at this last suggestion). He would still have a variety of discussion and divergent opinions because he has friends that obviously encourage him to pursue a gay lifestyle--believe me I know--because I have spoken at length about his other friends.

But with all due respect to you bloggers, whom I am sure are not all bad people or lacking rationale thought--but you have no contextual high ground from which to approach this very individualized situation.

Sorry just because you slept at a Holiday Inn Express (with some other man)-- doesn't allow you to perform emotional brain surgery on my gay brother!

GayMormon, I hope that you had fun in the snow over the weekend. Thanks for returning my credit card and I'll give you a call later, because I'm sure you'll feel a little less secure in your blog with me chiming in as I have. You know me well enough that I will listen and have listened to you. You know that I have deep sympathy for the trials with which you are engaged. You probably don't know that I have lost many hours of sleep praying, thinking, and worrying about you.

You know in your heart that I love you and I always will.
You also know that I am very opinionated (as you are) and that I reserve the right as given from God to hold, express, and argue forcefully my opinion.

It is a weak mind and whiny one that can't articulate his/her ideas and thoughts and beliefs in argumentative form without frustration, name calling, and stamping their proverbial feet and leaving the discussion. I'm sure that this blog entry will generate many whiny responses from people that can't handle a sharp criticism of their belief system.

Anyway, I'm tired and bored (again) Blogging is not my thing. I'll talk to you later.

9:39 PM  
Anonymous Dare said...

How come when someone posts an opinion different than yours, you say that an argument has broken out??

That’s easy to answer. An argument, as I’m sure you know, is rooted in a difference of opinion. However what makes it different from a simple “difference of opinion” is the tone and tactics used to wage it. Brother tim didn’t post his message in an effort to refute the particular opinions of others, or even to explain how his opinions differed. Rather he came here to say that the opinions of others don’t count, and that the posters are irresponsible to proffer them. In the process he used innuendo and aspersion to paint other posters as fraudulent or manipulative, despite having less information about them as they have about his brother. These are not the tactics of someone who has a mere difference of opinion. This is starting an argument. And as we can from the following posts, it worked. That’s unfortunate, in my opinion, as personal dairy-style blog is really not an appropriate place in which to start arguments between the posters.

Now go save the little "rat-monsters"...

I really have no idea what you’re talking about here, but projecting for a moment, I can tell you that my darling little “rat-monsters” are tucked safely in bed. Daddy (my partner) is off on a business trip tomorrow, so it will just be Papa (yours truly) to fend for them over the next few days. So if anyone needs saving, it will likely be me. :-)

10:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tim, I feel sorry for you. Who are you trying to convince? Bloggers? Or yourself? Methinks thou dost protest too much. The sheer length of your rant, the hysterical tone, the illogical attacks on disparate bloggers as if they were all some unified group--all of this extraordinary, extreme reaction sounds very neurotic. I know many people who--when things "came crashing down in their lives"--were grateful they had a committed sexual partner (whether gay or straight), because their partner was there, moreso than family. If your brother finds a man who becomes the most important person in his life--more important than a brother who's 9 years his senior--celebrate his growth and independence. Don't try to control your brother's life. Be ready to be there WITH him, in good times and bad; don't plan on being there for him "when things come crashing down." Maybe you'll be learning something about life from your brother. You have a lot to learn about what gay relationships can be

12:57 AM  
Anonymous Rob said...

Tim, I don't hear "whining." you have a problem with homosexuality. You can deal with it, if you want. You can get help, if you want. You have a lot of stereotypical views, and a lot of hostility. I'm simply happy your brother is exploring life, with someone who seems to be attracted to him, and care about him. If I were dating your brother and read this blog, I'd be cool with it. Your brother has taken care to protect the privacy of the individuals involved. Tim, do you really think you are helping your brother by intruding into his blog this way, by challenging him publically rather than privately? It seems kind of obnoxious to me, that if you just want to talk with your brother, you could do it one-on-one.

1:12 AM  
Anonymous Chip said...

Lighten up, Tim. Your brother is dating, that's all. Countless people date. He's with a nice guy. They're enjoying each other's company. All of this hllaboo you're making about STDs and spousal abuse!?! Why bring up imaginary bugaboos, when your brother is not putting himself in harm's way. You're just embarrassing yourself going off like that. How would you have felt if you proposed marriage to some gal and her brother began writing pblic diatribes saying she should not choose marriage bnecause her husband might turn out to be a wife-beater or give her an STD. Why are you so focused on all the things that MIGHT go wrong.

1:21 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't understand why a brother (like Tim) would want to read his brother's blog; it smacks of invasion of privacy. GM is thinking out loud for readers--most of whom presumably do not know him personally. If he is discussing with others issues of his sexual experiences and desires, his brother should not be reading this; his brother should let him disclose as much or as little of his private life to his brother as he wants to. Tim should have confidence in his brother's ability to run his own life, rather than try to run it for him, think for him. And should have respect for his brother, which means respecting choices his brother makes. GM is proceeding at a reasonable pace. Tim,whhy don't you give your brother an assurance you will not read his blog or discuss his sex life unless he invites you to.

5:01 AM  
Anonymous Brother Tim said...

Brother Tim here...

You gay bloggers are so scared at me being a part of this blog. I think it is kind of funny and I suppose as long as I can keep from being completely bored and squeeze out 10 minutes to write I will continue.

For all you anonymous guys--my brother is the one that told me about his blog. Did he invite you to opine also? I didn't know that this was an invitation only affair? And how can it be an invasion of privacy in a completely public blog? That's like saying that the gay pride parade in San Francisco should and can only be attended by invitees. Which means that Sunday morning when I was trying to get across market street when the parade was in full swing, I was crashing the party.

Chip, face the facts. STD's are higher among gay men when you compare similiar socioeconomic status.

Face the fact chip, suicides are extremely high in the Castro district-where it still has a high rate of gay men. Face the facts chip, gay relationships have a HUGE turnover rate--even my gay friends have acknowledged that one!

Chip face the facts, I have some very close friends who are gay who I respect immensely--but I do not condone their lifestyle.

And Rob, you obviously have not read much of my brother's blog nor my previous comments, because I handle my business directly with him. He and I have a great relationship in which we talk candidly, openly, and we agree that whining and being offended are not allowed. GayMormon knows that I can say whatever I think and so can he--without either of us getting offended.

So Rob, you missed the memo....

And to the other anonymous that calls me neurotic and that I am trying to control my brother's life---you have no understanding of GayMormon. He cannot be controlled. He is as stubborn as I am. But think for one moment, anonymous, don't you think that a brother's thoughts and views should be entertained in such as serious (non public) discussion such as this? The truth is most of you gay bloggers do not want any family involved! You do not want anybody from the Mormon church involved!

In your blogs, you have shown your cards--you want to be the ones exercising mind control! Well it ain't going to happen---

The battle for the minds and the hearts of men started thousands of years ago....and is still being fought today.

8:19 AM  
Blogger el veneno said...

I know it's a mistake to post when I'm mad, but I just can't resist right now:

boys, boys, boys... everyone take a breather and go to your rooms for a second to think. You're making yourselves look silly.

I'm really glad to have BrotherTim's viewpoint expressed here. Every viewpoint has some validity and his side of the debate is highly underrepresented. I'd submit that Tim's viewpoint has a lot more validity than most of ours because of his relationship with GM.

You all freaked out (yes you did freak out) and make it seem like you're trying to protect GM from Tim's "vicious" comments. GM already knows what Tim thinks. They are brothers. Some of you have you probably chosen to distance yourselves from your nuclear families and probably don't give a crap what your real brothers or parents say. I haven't done that and I still care. I think GM does too. That's a good thing. So anyway, the point is Tim's comments were directed at US--- the blog readers and commenters. We don't need to stand up for GM right now. I personally don't feel at all threatened or offended by Tim's comment. Those of you who do kind of make me think you're unsure of your position. It's just another opinion. I hope it isn't a huge news flash to you that many people think YOU are wrong.

For a while I gave up on reading GM's blog but I kind of came back recently when I realized that he and I are a lot more similar than I once thought and when I realized that the people who were commenting on his blog weren't giving him the advice I would want to receive. GM is a little torn. That's A-OK. He's dealing with rationalizing several things and he wants to keep them all. Those of you who give him the advice to give up everything that doesn't fit the gay mold don't seem to be listening to what he is saying or really caring. In that aspect Tim has a very good point.

On the whole "we are family" thing. That is sad. Like that alone is enough to make me never want to step farther into gaydom. You guys didn't conceive me in love, carry me in the womb for 9 months, change my diapers, teach me to talk, nurse me when I'm sick, laugh at my dumb jokes, invest thousands and thousands of hours and dollars in me... That's family guys. I think family is one thing the Mormon church has really right. Don't try to change that.

Anyways, I know that's a rant. Sorry. Tim. Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. I hope you and GM continue to have good conversations. I hope you're there for him through whatever he choses. The main thing guys like us need is consistency-- being able to know that even if we don't do what you suggest that you will still be here for us and if we come back around or not we're not gonna lose that support. When family stops supporting is when we start feeling the need to look to other sources.

To all of us gay commenters. Let's be a little less gay, ok? We don't need to flip a hissy fit just cause someone disagrees. We don't need to coddle each other all the time and tell each other everything is swell if really it's not. And really, let's all get a little more involved in our own lives and a little less involved in each others. There are probably people in your part of the world who need you. Spend some time with them.

wah... luck everyone.

9:10 AM  
Anonymous Charles said...

Hey guys,

I want to say that I think Tim has a right to share on his brother's blog. It shows that he loves his brother. I may not agree with everything he said, but I still think what he has said, is worth listening too. It's an easy life being gay, and GM is lucky to have his brother there for him. Because in many ways, he is right. We aren't going to be there expect for through the blog during the bad times. Any way, just my two cents.

1:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think anyone is "scared of having tim post here. The damage this is done will most likely be to Tim and perhaps his relationship with his brother. It just seems kind of silly to me for a brother to weigh in, so heavy-handedly, on his brother's turf. Tim, you wrote yo remember holding your brother as a baby. Which is a beautiful memory. But it sounds to me like you don't want him to grow up. Adults, generally, want to be held (and to hold) abeloved partner, a sexual partner. To feel fully loved. To fully give love. Tim, can't you let go? Your briother, as part of a natural maturing process, may come to want that feeling of being loved, fully (sexually as well as emotionlly) he cannot get from a mere friend, or from a brother (even if the brother remembers fondly holding him as a baby). Every father remenbers fondly holding his babies, too. But somedasy children leave their parents (and siblings) in a sense, and cleave to whomever they love. The kind of sexually expressed intimacy GM is searching for is what adults, generally, search for. To deny him that is to infantalize him. Write whatever you want, Tim. But I think you rik embarrassing ourself--not just by your ignornce of gay matters, but by your discussing in public what your brother's sex life should be. Just SAYING you have gay friends doesn't mean much. How many white southern segregationistys who fought civil rights for blacks would prefacev their opinions by saying they had black friends they respected.

4:27 PM  
Anonymous Rob Adams said...

Hello gain from Rob Adams: GM, I am very proud of your for starting and maintaining this blog. It takes courage. And it helps you and others going through the pricess you are going through. I can understand your brother wishing you were not exposed to these differing viewpoints. He wants to limit the information you have, which is sad, but typical. Mind control is so thoroughly part of Mormon tradition, it is second nature for him to attempt it. You know the views of your family already. Your brother is not going to write anything here that you haveb't heard (many of us have heard the same crap). Ther blog exposes you to new information, new viewpoints you were not exposed to, growing up in the Mormon corridor. Good luck. Briother time, no one here has tried to silence your voice; some have merely suggested that brothers should kee their disagreements private. But in telling GM to shut down the blog, you are trying to stop his exposure from views you don't like, arguments you cannot challenge, information you cannot rebut. There's a bullying quality inb your trying to tell your brother not to write his feelings, not to listen o others, not to try to find a new path for his life when following the proscriptions of his church and family wasn't giving him a rewarding life.

4:59 PM  
Anonymous RM said...

This kind of older-brother egotism, where the older brother thinks he has the right to tell the younger brother how to live, is not that rare. But what I find offensive is the older brother's belief that if his younger brother's life falls apart, only people like the older brother (who does not condone the younger brother, but consider's his sexual orientation a "sin") will be there to help him. Does the older brother really imagine his younger brother is incapable of forming bonds with other gay men who will stand by him, in good times or bad? They won't be bloggers, of course, but people he knows well in real life. Who, by offering acceptance rather than rejection, may become closer and more important parts of his support network, over time.

5:15 PM  
Blogger Patmos said...

Tim, I must say, you have started a new day here on the blogg.

I must say this as well... I use to comment often here, I am not gay and even more so, I am a minister, yet a minister with his own struggles. However, what I am wanting to say is this.

Unless you agree with them, they will not like you, nor tolerate you.

I also believe that this blogg is VERY MUCH out of context with it's title, I honestly think that it should now be called "Accepted It" no longer "Struggling"

5:48 PM  
Blogger Another Other said...

This whole thing has been fascinating. Somehow, I feel kind of like a bystander because my comments at GM's blog have been so minimal. But, the interesting thing is, I think I've kept them minimal for reasons of fear of the kind of backlash Tim has experienced, which I guess I'm only realizing at this moment, as I read this thread. I fear feeling the heat of backlash that is herein evident towards Tim's comments because I, as a Mormon man who is both gay and married to a woman, am so divergent in opinions with so many of the people that comment on this blog that such a response seems inevitable. Sadly, there have been times when I've even written out comments, and then felt so hesitant to share them for fear of the negative response to divergent views (which thing is completely apparent in this thread, so evidently not unfounded fear) that I simply erased them. And that's not really like me. And honestly, I doubt that's what GM would want anybody to feel at his blog. Like El Veneno, I almost couldn't take even reading this blog for a while there... GM's blog itself was good, but the overwhelming conglomeration of gay men pushing their propagandas under the guise of being "helpers" and attacking anyone who didn't fit their mold was exceedingly frustrating and discouraging to me. And this is why, I would imagine, there is a huge imbalance of perspective here--most of the comments leaning towards the "be free, sexually explore, start to live the life, see what it's like" end of the spectrum, and only a few (predictably very attacked) comments from other vantage points. Because GM's express purpose seems to be to elicit as many perspectives as possible as he weighs his options, the heavy-handed disproportion of the pro-gay anti-Mormon posse seems pretty... inappropriate. And unfortunate. (Talk about brainwash!) So, basically, while I don't necessarily agree with Tim's delivery, the sentiment of his post is one that I commiserate with. Thanks for your perspective, Tim.

5:57 PM  
Anonymous K. C. Broadbent said...

The sheer length and intensity of Brother Tim's rants are telling. Does he really imagine that GM hasn't heard this all befre? Does he really think that sledgehammering points EVERY person who grew u Mormon has heard many times will make the points more vlid? GM was raised with the same hmophobic propaganda that Brother tim was, that so many of us were. He is questioning it. And that is a threat to Brother tim and those who support him. Life is hard. There are plenty of ways to screw up, whether you are gay or straight. But here GM is having good experiences with a good guy who likes him and respects him, and Brother TIm is so upset he wants to shape the content of GM"s blog--it's pitiful. Brother Tim's stepping into the fray as soon as GM is finding a little happiness smacks of desperation.

7:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know that if I were writing a blog, I wouldn't want it to be hijacked by my own brother. that just seems totally disrespectful and inconsiderate--like brother tim is so full of himself he does not see any problem with publically undermining his own brother, all in the name of love.

8:14 PM  
Anonymous Brother Tim said...

Brother Tim here....

I am pleasantly surprised to hear from some others on this subject who share a similiar (not the same necessarily) view point, i.e. El Veneno, patmos, another other, or charles. I realize some of these don't agree or won't agree with my view points, but at least they are honest when they say "let him speak". Another Other you have some seriously sharp and inspired insight into the agenda of the Gay Religion, I couldn't have agreed with you more.

This blog is tipping slightly toward a more balanced perspective.

Guys like KC Broadbent, rob adams, anonymous, and RM really don't want a balanced perspective. You dismiss my opinions with superficial rhetoric. You resort to kindgarten-like name calling using your most familiar yet trite word "homophobic". Quite frankly you guys have a serious problem with the Mormon religion that comes through in all your ranting.

You adhere to the Gay Religion and you are trying to proselyte my brother. Why should I not try to persuade him the same?

I am directing my remarks in these blogs to those gay men that have no true or real sympathy towards my brother. I realize that there are more than a few gay mormons who are struggling with their homosexual tendencies. I realize that there are some who have chosen a way of life compatible with the Mormon doctrine. I realize that in so doing, you have exposed yourself to the sharp darts and arrows of this Gay Religion. I commend you in your strength and from the experiences I have had with my brother, I sympathize with your trials (both of the internal mind and of the external ridicule).

Rob Adams, RM and others you guys are most ignorant regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Your remarks are whiney and thin and lack any practical experience with the Church. Our church is an entire environment of love and respect. There is no mind control, nor could there be in a religion that holds a fundamental tennant -- freedom of choice. Even to our most wayward of souls, we unendingly extend a hand of love, service, and hope. Even to those who are excommunicated for their willing violations of its tennants (those tennants to which they agreed voluntarily) are still watched over closely and nurtured and loved.

By the way, RM you expose your seriously confused view of family everytime you imply that the gay community can serve as his family of sorts. Were you an orphan? Your view of family is not mine nor do I ever want it to be.

By the way anonymous who confuses the struggle for racial equality with the Gay Religion is very indeed in need of a rude awakening. Try talking to a black man about how the gay movement is similar to the civil rights movement. You may end up on the floor. There is no and I stress no equivalent with the civil rights movement and the gay movement. To even suggest such smacks of arrogance and ignorance on your part and demeans those valiant warriors of civil rights!

In regards to GayMormon, He sees the subtleties of your condescending and demeaning comments--let alone a demonstration of the very fact that I am trying to articulate--you do not know my brother!! He is doubly more smart than both of you put together. He is sharp! He thinks for himself. He realizes that any choice he makes is his. He will not blame others for his own choices. He will accept his consequences accordingly. The only critique I have of his high IQ is that he chose this venue to share deeply personal matters.

GayMormon, I'll talk to you later; and as always, I'll reserve my deepest thoughts, feelings and perspectives for the proper environment of brother to brother.

10:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am astonished by the level of willful blindness shown in Tim's comments, the lack of historical perspective, the incredible manipulativeness. I am straight. I am LDS. I work for the church in New York. Some of my coworkers, lik GM, are LDS and gay by nature. (The church would lose many dedicated pr workers if it actually got rid of all gay members.) I am aghast that Tim assmes, without so much as an ounce of thought, that (a) anyone who supports GM here in his quest to find himself must also be gay. I am straight but I do not support the current LDS position regarding homosexuality.(I am not alone. Go to a Sunstone Mormon gathering abnd aask people what they honestly think; you may be surprised at the variety of opinions you my hear. Not everyne sustains the Brethren on this issue. And as societyu's attitudes towards gay right evolve, so will attitudes of more LDS members evolve.) I think current LDS policies towards gays are as wrong as the LDS policies towards blacks, pre-1978 were in many ways.(There were LDS members, pre 1978, who questioned the wisdom of the Brethren on the anti-black policies the church had, just as there as some LDS members today who question the wisdom of the Brethren on current policies towards gays. Those policies are subtly evolving. Church leaders who used to advise gay men to marry women no longer do so, because they realize their past advoce weas harmful. More changes may come, with more light, in time. The Community of Christ/RLDS Church has becom very accepting towards gays in the past 20 years, compatred to the LDS Church.) And Tim, do you think you can speak for all black people? Do you think there are no black people (whether gay or straight) who see the connections between the civil rights issues faced by blacks and those faced by gays? Do you not see any parallels between the attitudes of rejection the LDS Church long projected towards blacks back in the days when blacks were denied the priesthood) and the attitudes of rejection the church projects today towards gays? Your attempts to put people who duisagree with you into some invented "gay religion is crazy. In New York, where I've grown up, most people, gay or straightm, support gay rights. Tim, the word homophobic has a very real meaning; you need to seriously ask yourself if it applies to you. Tim, I hear you calling those who disagree with you names. But your smug attitude that only you can sympathize with your brother, no gay person can, is so prideful I m embarrassed for you. Whether or not I agree with all points made by all the different posters--and I don't--I certainly can feel their goodwill towards GM, their desires for his happiness. You need to have the humility to accept thevery real possibility that following current church policy--follopwing the Law of Chastity--may not bring happiness for individuals who are gay, such as GM. You need to open yourself to the possibility--not the certainty but the possibility--that your brother's sexual explorations, which have the support of some people here, gay or straight, LDS, ex-LDS, or nevermo--may make him a happier, more complete, more fulfilled human being. I don't think the LDS definition of family is the only one. One can believe in strong nuclear families, but also believe in extended families of supportive kindred spirits. The warmth and support expressed towards GM by people saying we think of yuou as part of our metaphoric family, is a very good thing. Trying to say that ONLY blood reltives can have his best interests at heart is too foolish to even merit debate. Tim, if you care about your brother, stop posturing here. Work out your own problems on your own time. There is nothing you can say that others will not say. But pressuring your brother publically seems remarkably unkind to me, a form of abuse. Ask your Bishop if he thinks this is wise. am not saying don't speak to your brither. I am questioing the wisdom f your trying to publically undermine him, to take away his confidence, to tell him you believe everything is going to come crashing down for him and you will be his only supporter. Those are very cruel things to suggest, the things that you are suggesting to him.

11:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

GM, does your brother always go on and on and on, like this? Does he never admit even the possibility he might be wrong about anything, and that you (or some who voice views contrary to his) might have some valid points, or at least good intentions. His whole style--the pompous windbag thing, the dehumanizing of those who disagree with him--reminds me of Prof. Peterson at BYU, who would never allow that anyone with an opinion different from his could possibly have any smarts.

11:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would love to see this blog go back to being about GM, not his brother. GM reched a milestone. He's found someone he kinda likes, who has brought him to orgasm a couple of times. He has had gay sexual experiences (as defined by Kinsey, reaching climax with someone of the same sex). And their romance is blossoming. This should be a happy time. I sort of resent the brother trying to mke this a time for regurgitating all the same sort of anti-gay stuff that other people posted on this blog last spring. We've heard it all before.

12:12 AM  
Anonymous BB said...

Finally, a comment that I agree with. I'm referring to the anonymous comment by the LDS person in New York City. S/He articulated what I've been thinking.

And, for what it's worth, it's the very church which Tim says promotes love and family that has caused GM to be in so much, well, "agony" about being gay. He did not make the choice to be gay; he's only chosen to accept it and try to integrate it into his life.

And, the Mormon Church doesn't have a monopoly on happiness. One *can* be happy and *not* be LDS; believe it or not.

1:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi GM and brother Tim,

I left the following comment on GM's "Action/Reaction" post on Feb. 8:

"I've read your entries for several months now, but am finally moved to comment for the first time. I want to congratulate you on the maturity and insight demonstrated in this current post. It is refreshing to see you embrace change and the evolution of who you are and what makes you truly happy, post-BYU and post-mission. Unfortunately, not everyone who is close to you now (family, friends) will embrace this evolution on your specific timeline. If they truly know you and love you, however, they will eventually come around. Their lives will be fuller, knowing a man who is true to himself, true to his creator, and living an upstanding life, while at the same time seeking that which most of us ultimately cherish most -- lifetime companionship and intimacy. This kind of life *is* possible post-mission, post-BYU, and post-mormonism. I know this firsthand."

FYI, I am a straight woman, a "doc", Ivy-educated, a BYU grad, and an RM. I went through the process, too, of evaluating what I really wanted out of my life, what really made me happy on a lasting level, and what role the LDS church played in that. I chose to love myself and be true to why God put me here. You may be surprised to know that that conflicted with LDS teachings on several points.

Tim, you obviously love your brother. I would also feel a lot of concern if one of my siblings took his/her personal struggle into a public, albeit anonymous forum. That is our job and instinct as older sibs. I believe, however, that GM gets feedback and support here that isn't available in his ward, from his family, or from his bishop. I think it's clear that he has the moral fortitude to choose and stick with his decisions; I also think he has the right to explore love in its many forms, as that is one of the most important things we can experience in this (or any other) life.

I pray that GM exhibits wisdom and experiences many kinds of love. I pray that Tim continues to love GM *unconditionally*.

8:31 AM  
Anonymous Brother Tim said...

Anonymous from new york....

Again, you expose your lack of understanding of the civil rights movement. Their is nothing of substance that compares to the gay movement and the civil rights movement.

In regards to your obvious anger toward the church for whom you profess to work, that is your issue and one that will probably continue to make you miserable.

I will write on this blog as I wish. You are so threatened by my opinions--it only drives me further to opine.

Your analysis of the church is nearly entirely wrong and you confuse the issue of gay people with gay sex. The Church is solid, consistent and will forever be in it's principles and doctrines. True policies and procedures may change, but Truth will not.

Now in regards to gay sex. There is no possible reconciliation with the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and every other prophetic uterance of this dispensation! So go on hoping that public opinion will change the Church's mind--it will never!

By the way, I know who you are. I've spoken with my brother about you. Why don't you just come out of the closet and use a name or title so I can more properly address your points of view--as rambling and incoherent as they may occasionally become.

I realize you are a woman and not a gay man, but that doesn't change my viewpoints or my approach.

It will only be a little while before you CHOOSE to leave the Church. I've seen it before. You'll blame the Church for all your choices, etc. But in the end the Church and its leaders stand their with open arms of love.....

8:32 AM  
Anonymous Brother Tim said...

Oops, sorry Anonymous from New York. I apologize for confusing a woman with a gay man....

How inconsiderate of me? I didn't mean to offend you.............

I also forgot to give my intellectual obeisance to the great god of Manhattan and it's populace (you know big city ideas are far superior to all else).

8:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I haven't read all of the comments, and I'm not going to. I read Tim's first comment, and a few of the others.

I think Tim is right and wrong--it would absurd for GM to consider the advice garnered from commenters equal to that of those who know him personally. Personal acquaintance matters as to the likelihood that advice will be salient. Nonetheless, we should never fall into the ad hominem fallacy that suggests that the truthfulness of a statement depends on its author. Truth is truth regardless of who utters it, and the commenters here may offer it despite their distance from GM.

Using a blog is a perfectly appropriate way to thoughtfully explore a subject: when I had one, I found that it frequently took the place of my journal.

And a few side comments:
To the fellow who suggested that all gays are a family, I reply, "Buncombe." enjoying the same attractions does not a family tie make. There are simply too many varieties in the gay rainbow (pun intended) to unify them under the banner of filial ties.

To Tim, further along the ad hominem fallacy line, I question your assertion that GM needs to seek advice from ecclesiastical leaders. Many church leaders are nice, and sometimes they are right. However (despite your protestations and faith to the contrary), their position of authority in the church confers no superiority whatsoever in giving advice. I received plenty of rotten advice from bishops, stake presidents, and a mission president; it's part of what drove me to estrange myself from the Church.

9:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

By the way, that last comment was me: M l'Homme.

9:17 AM  
Blogger Dave said...

I'm sorry I didn't have time to make it through all the comments before posting. Brother Tim, I don't care what degree you have I would never go to you for therapy because it is based in your religion not on facts. Just because you are licensed doesn't mean you are a good therapist and are capable of helping others. Also, you can't say you respect a person and not condone their lifestyle. How can you respect someone who you totally disagree with?

9:22 AM  
Blogger David said...

"You discount and don't even acknowledge the fact that many gay men are very unhappy inspite of several relationships. You ignore the fact that gay men still have high suicide rates in the Castro district"

Many people, gay and straight, are unhappy in this world. I think you know that. Maybe you should talk about the outrageously high rates at which people in Utah commit suicide and the record numbers of people in Utah that are on anti-depressants.

To compare your claim to the statistics that have come out the LDS population of Utah get antidepressants at twice the national average and we lead the nation in the use of narcotic pain killers.

http://www.dailyutahchronicle.com/media/paper244/news/2003/04/08/Feature/Utah-Ranks.High.In.Suicide.Rates-411761.shtml?norewrite200603281217&sourcedomain=www.dailyutahchronicle.com

In 1999, Utah had a suicide rate of 13.2 cases per 100,000 people, a rate substantially higher than the national average of 10.7.

In 2000, Utah had the 10th highest suicide rate nationally

In 2002, Utah ranked ninth highest in the nation in suicide rates, according to a study published by the American Association of Suicidology.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/suifacts.htm

Males are four times more likely to die from suicide than females

You seem far too intelligent Tim to have used such a ridiculous argument. The Castro has a disproportionate number of men and to make such a claim like that should lead you to explain the suicide rates in Mormon Utah. You seem to think that the gay men in the Castro that kill themselves do so because they are gay. Such a flimsy thought process might lead someone to think that the high suicide rate in Utah is tied to Mormonism in some way. Afterall, the Castro is very gay and Utah is very Mormon.

Have you ever really wondered why gay men kill themselves? Because I assure you it's not because they felt loved and accepted by the world or probably even their families. I can see very clearly that you love your brother deeply and I can also see what he means when he says that you "are never wrong." I just hope you spend more time trying to understand your brother than you spend trying to make him understand you.

9:42 AM  
Anonymous Brother Tim said...

Brother Tim here....

Ivy League anonymous, I appreciate your tone of thought and well placed opinion. You make a good point in that truth is truth irrespective of the messenger (your ad hominem fallacy point well taken and agreed)! My point is that a very obvious agenda is being promoted by many of the gays to the point that many other voices are being silenced. I will always be there for my brother--I may never agree with some of his decisions. These people that argue the gay perspective from the point that "they are happy" in a gay relationship so my brother will be also lack serious logical thought processes.

My brother is very sharp. He is also very stubborn--almost as stubborn as I. But intelligence is not wisdom. I disagree with him posting his most intimate desires and actions on a blog! I disagree with anyone doing this.

I am sorry about your disaffection with the Church and yes it explains some of the positions that you take in your blog. I guess you and I would disagree with each other with the fundamental idea that ecclesiastical leaders by virtue of their religious callings are entitled to inspired guidance and revelation. I personally have not received anything but timely, superior, and inspired insight into my own soul and trials. This is truly a matter of faith and testimony. Or as you said, truth is truth regardless of the deliverer. Therefore, one of us is right and one is wrong on this matter.

And for Dave, your following comment:
"Also, you can't say you respect a person and not condone their lifestyle. How can you respect someone who you totally disagree with?"
Frankly, you could not be more wrong! Some of the people I respect and love the most I disagree with the most! Love and respect are not a matter of opinion. They are a product of the heart.
Now you may be surprised to note that GayMormon and I share the same opinions on almost every idea politically and socially with the exception of the gay religion. In fact, my brother and I share most of the same opinions regarding the gay religion.

Sorry Dave (same or different I know not). I didn't have time to do a fact check on your so-called references, but the one link you provided was no longer good.

I think the one reasonable reconciliation of your ideas is that all the gay mormons are committing suicide in Utah after becoming seriously addicted to psychotropics; and therefore, that is why we have a proportionally low gay population. It's either that or guns DO kill people--not people killing people!

7:20 PM  

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