My brother will be starting his own blog soon ... iHateGayMormonsBlog.blogspot.com ;)
Thanks, Tim, for keeping my blog active over the weekend. Ha! I was extremely surprised to see 28 new comments in my inbox. Even more surprising was my brother’s participation. Pretty funny, actually. I’m happy he’s willing to comment.
I must admit that I was not surprised by anything my brother said. He’s very open about his opinions, and he’s never afraid to take opposing viewpoints. Additionally, he’s never wrong. But neither am I, so it works out. :)
I just have a few comments before I go to bed tonight.
First, I see no harm in writing about my personal issues on this blog. Why? Because a) I believe in openness, b) I haven’t written anything too horrible, offensive, or embarrassing, and c) it has been a good outlet for me.
In fact, I disagree strongly with the idea that homosexuality – or any major struggle – should be hidden or covered up. Homosexuality is a very real thing, and I don’t think secrecy is good for the individual, the church, society, etc. Even if people believe homosexuals shouldn’t “act out” or live gay lifestyles, that doesn’t mean gay people will cease to exist. It’s an issue/topic that must be addressed -- and not just with religious leaders and family members.
I personally have struggled with homosexuality the most when I was secretive about it. Secrecy is the breeding grounds for trouble. I think Tim would agree with that statement.
Honestly, one of my pet peeves about church culture is the lack of openness. There’s so much shame, embarrassment, and secrecy associated with people’s real problems. I hope that culture changes – and I think it has been changing. Heck, if the church is serious about helping homosexuals, the culture must change.
But even if the culture doesn’t change, the facts remain: I am attracted to men, I have looked – and will likely look again – at porn, and I masturbate occasionally. If I’m serious about finding solutions or resolution to my struggles, then I must get past my ego.
To summarize, I don’t believe this personal issue should be limited to family and religious leaders. I have solicited advice and counsel from many sources – including BYU counseling, several religious leaders, my father, and even my loving, opinionated brother. I know their perspective, I appreciate that perspective, and I even agree with many elements of that perspective. But it’s not the only one out there, and I want to hear others. Hence, my blog.
Sorry, Tim. I will continue to blog about this. And I will also continue to talk to family members and religious leaders. And I will work hard to avoid hurting others via my blog.
I must say that I'm flattered by the amount of love my family has always shown me. I am very lucky to have such a supportive, loving brother like Tim. He, like many of you, wants what's best for me. I'm blessed to have him as my sibling.
posted by Gay Mormon at 1:27 AM
36 Comments:
GM, I'm not sure it's wise to encourage fiercely opposed bloggers to comment -- without demanding they do so civilly. But it's your call. I'll take that as permission to rip your brother's arguments to tiny shreds. (In my usual constructive, respectful manner, of course.)
Brother Tim here...
Thanks GayMormon. I thought you might be surprised by the fact that I took the time to write. But frankly, just as many of the blogs from yesterday stated--there is a very one-sided, pro-gay, pro-gay sex, pro-act on impulse, pro-give in to your passions attitude that permeates this blog.
I was generally encouraged when others with a dissenting view chimed in.
Gay Dave Walter, don't confuse passion and strength of opinion for civility. Have you ever seen a true cross examination in a superior court? It can be brutal, but by definition it is civil.
GayMormon, I'm really just trying to drive your blog stats through the roof! (I know that you check that)
A few more caustically placed comments and you'll have thousands of contributors.....Talk to you later bro.
Hi GM, great reply, right on target. Your intelligence, tact and aplomb serve as an example to all.
I'm behind you 100% on your perspective on secrecy. I can imagine it might be hard for family members to know certain things about you, but the world needs more honesty. Many people don't talk about things that make them uncomfortable, which provides no opportunity for them to achieve progression or greater understanding.
I haven't read any of the comment your brother has left (with the exception of the one on this post) but I hope he is respectful of your free agency.
In fact, I disagree strongly with the idea that homosexuality – or any major struggle – should be hidden or covered up. Homosexuality is a very real thing, and I don’t think secrecy is good for the individual, the church, society, etc.
I totally agree with you here. I've never posted a comment on your blog before, but I've been reading it for a long time. I'm a straight LDS woman. Before I began reading your blog and the blogs of other gay Mormons, I was confused about homosexuality. I didn't know where I stood on the "Are people born gay or is it a choice?" debate. I had a lot of misconceptions about gay people and their lifestyles. Reading these blogs has been a real eye-opener for me. I've come to believe that people don't "choose" to be gay. I imagine that when people say ignorant things to you like "Can't you just decide not to be attracted to men?" you feel about like I do when people say "Depression isn't real, you just need to decide to be happy and read your scriptures more" to me.
Your willingness to be open and share your struggles has changed the way I view homosexuality. I've even managed to convince my somewhat homophobic husband that there are a lot of gay people out there who are good people just trying to do the right thing. Thank you for sharing what you're going through. It's made a difference in my life and, no doubt, the lives of many others.
Your brother isn't being supportive of you. He wants to convince you that his way is the only way to go when he knows nothing of what it's like to be gay. I'm not telling you to have sex, like he claims we're all after, I just don't want you to live a miserable life. The only reason it is even hard at all for you now is because you've grown up with people like your brother making you feel bad for being who you are.
My dear, dear Gay Mormon: Hey! It's Chip here. What a wonderful post you wrote today. I think openness can benefit everything. And if your bossy older brother can open his bmind a little, he can learn a lot from people here, whon have knowledge in various areas he lacks. Whether or not her agrees with individuals' opinions, he can still learn--if he's willing to. I thought it s silly--delusional, almst--hen he wrote thatfor gay people being gay is their religion. Your brother DOES tend to think stereotypically, doesn't he? he DOEs want to think all gay people are alike, doesn't he? If he lived in the New York area, like I do, he'd meet openly gay people of every imaginable rweligious blief: Jewish, Unitarian, Buddhist, etc. And all of those faiths--as typically encountered in NYC--are supportive of being gay. You can be an openly gay, active Reformed Jew (the most popular Jewish sect in NYC) and be ordanied as a Rabbi; you can likewise be ordained as a minister, while openly, actively gay. Buddhism supports people finding joy in life, whether straight or gay. There are plenty of religions people follow that are not anti-gay. I was raised Dutch Reformed, which was hostile to being gay when I was a kid, but has grown a lot more suppoprtive in my lifetime. Religions come in all shades. GM, your brother says he has gayu friends. Good! I hope that if, someday, you bring gay friends or an acknowledged gay boyfriend to family functions, he will be just as friendly to whomever you bring as he woulkd be to a straight sibling's boyfriend or girlfriend or spouse. I wonder, though, how your brother's gay friends view him--as a misguided homophobe, possiblyu? How much of a friend do they consider him? I haveno way of knowing, but when someone virulently anti-gay--not to mention confused--says hye has "gay friends,"I sometimes wonder how his gay friends view him. The other thing your brother does not gtet is that many of us here, whether gay or straight, are going to be equally supportive of you WHATEVER choices you ultimately mke. Yes, I am happily gay. But I'll be happy for you, if you find happiness in your life, whether you wind up with a nice boyfriend or take a vow of chastity or whatyever YOU choose. That is why your brother seems controlling to some of us. It sounds like he is pushing you to lead a sexless life, like he, in effec, is trying to neuter you. I honestly don't care what choice you ultimately make, so long as YOU are happy with it and find it fulfilling. Good luck with everything. Your brother sure does have a high opinion of the importance of HIS opinions in dictating how you should live your life, doesn't he. If my brother was ever that bossy about ANYTHING, I think I'd be praying to be an orphan (that is a joke, I love my brother and sisdter, and I'm glad you love yours). But it is YOUR life, not your brother's. And I have a hunch that the "doctor" who can put a smilee on your face right now might not be your brother but that other doctor you met. Good luck with everything. As for your brother's prediction that some bloggers who post herec will noty be permanent parts of you life, of course that is true. But you MIGHT develop some lasting, long-term friendships ftrom your blog that will have a life even after the blog someday may be finished. You've shatred your mail address, some of us have shatred ours with you. Who knows what lasting friendships may develop. And if you ever get back to NYC, give me a shout (you know my Email); it'd be fuun to talk more n person. If you and your b, by some miricle, get to NYC this Spring, I can comp you both into a musical comedy show you might enjoy. TTYL, Chip
Dear GM: Your brother seems so filled with anger and self-righteousness. I hope he can work on those issues. Several posters have made the link between opposition today to gay rights and opposityion a generation ago to black civil rights. Tim seems to think this link is only noticed by gay men, but many black civil rights leaders, from Jesse Jacksonm to Coretta cott Sking, have made the link and spoken out in favor of gay rights. In NYC, there are many black clergymen who are publically supportive of gay rights, and others who are not. In states like NY, NJ, CT, MA, VT, etc. where most citizens support gay rights, people see it as a basic civil rights issue. If tim does not, that is fine; he should be aware, though, that public support for gay rights has grown markedly in the last 50 years, and ifit continuers growing, attitudes even in the LDS Church could change. The church, for example, no longer twells members that oral sex is forbidden. TI'm not saying the church will chahge. Only that it has changed, maybe more than Tim realizes. If my views on the similarities between the struggle for gay rights and black civil rights is closer to Jesse Jackson's than to Tim's, I'm comfortable with that. That's good company. And why does Tim presume that the person working for the church in NYC who disagreed with church policies is"miserable." Many of us disagree with our employers on issues without being miserable. If GM were hired to work for the church tomorrow, writing press releases or whatever, he might well disagree with some church positions. But could do a good job, I'd bet, without being miserable. No job is perfect.; Nor do all who have beefs with the church leave it. Tim seems to view everything as black or white, when most people can live with shades of gray.
Finally, I don't mind posting my name. But if others--such as Tim--decline to post their full names--that is OK. But considering Tim does not give his fll name, he seems like a hypoctrite when he faultys the person working for the church for not giving his or her full name.
I like your sense of humor, GM! Good blog!
Hey, if I start a blog will peopl offer ME free theater tickets? I wish!
I'd like to second what Chip said, I support you NO MATTER what path you choose. I firmly believe you are capable of following the path God has prepared for you, even if I do not understand that path. I, like most of the people that comment on your blog, offer my opinion when I feel it might help or I think I can support you. The main difference I see between people like your brother and those he is so willingly arguing with on here is that your brother has an agenda for you. I would be cautious accepting the view point of anyone that is unwilling to admit that they are not perfect and do not know everything. I doubt your brother would even momentarily entertain the idea that his views might be wrong, which is fine, he's entitled to that, but definitely something for you to think about as you seek understanding. He seems to believe just about every stereotype out there regarding gay people.
stereotype |ˈsterēəˌtīp; ˈsti(ə)r-| noun 1 a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing : the stereotype of the woman as the carer | sexual and racial stereotypes
You seem to me to be a very strong person, and very intelligent. You are basically a stranger to me, but I care for you anyway. I've been able to relate to many of the things you've written about on here. Some of the things you've written on here are things I can't understand or relate to, but that's ok with me. Some people are unable to care for or have consideration for the views of others, especially if those people have views different than their own. Living in a bubble of superiority where you think you understand everything is a very isolating path in life, you've shown that you don't want to live in such a bubble. I know that the Mormon church does not advocate such a way of existing. I admire your open mind and strong morals.
As for the long run of life. I, for one, would support you any way I could, for the rest of my life. I think that is true with many of the people that read and comment on your blog. Nothing could ever take the place of a supportive family, however, supportive friends can (and often do) take the place of an unsupportive family.
I believe your brother's behavior and actions are strongly out of line with Mormon doctirne:
A priesthood holder is temperate. This means he is restrained in his emotions and verbal expressions. He does things in moderation and is not given to overindulgence. In a word, he has self-control. He is the master of his emotions, not the other way around.
If a man does not control his temper it is a sad admission that he is not in control of his thoughts. He then becomes a victim to his own passions and emotions, which lead him to actions that are totally unfit for civilized behavior, let alone behavior for a priesthood holder.
A priesthood bearer who is patient will be tolerant of the mistakes and failings of his loved ones. Because he loves them, he will not find fault nor criticize nor blame.
A priesthood bearer is kind. One who is kind is sympathetic and gentle with others. He is considerate of others’ feelings and courteous in his behavior. He has a helpful nature. Kindness pardons others’ weaknesses and faults.
You should always remember the statement of the Savior that “the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil.” (3 Ne. 11:29.)
I opened with the question “What manner of men ought we to be?” You remember the Lord’s answer is this: “Verily I say unto you, even as I am.” (3 Ne. 27:27; italics added.)
He expects us to be like Him. He expects us to demonstrate the fruits of the Spirit in our lives which are “love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.” (Gal. 5:22–23.)
These Christlike traits should characterize each priesthood holder and should permeate every Latter-day Saint home. It can be done and must be done if we are to honorably bear His name.
Never in the history of mankind has there been a greater need for men to be united in their determination and actions to be Christlike in character.
To follow Him is to emulate His character.
From:What Manner of Men Ought We to Be?
President Ezra Taft Benson
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
I took the liberty to add emphasis.
One final quote from Dallin H. Oaks:
Our doctrines obviously condemn those who engage in so-called “gay bashing”—physical or verbal attacks on persons thought to be involved in homosexual or lesbian behavior.
Get a grip Brother Tim, there is plenty more Mormon Doctrine to refute your behavior where this came from.
Dear Gay Morm--
Your brother sure does like to hear his own voice. That kind of verbal diarrhea is exhausting to read. And painful for me in particular because I made all of those same stupid arguments myself, in the same weirdly obsessive way your brother does, when I was younger, mindlessly parroting what I'd heard elders say. Until a poin came when realized I was simply wrong about a lot of my preconceptions.Meeting actul people who didn't fit the concepts I'd held of homsexulity mde a difference. Your brother seems so obsessve about responding to every single person here ho disagrees withb him, even a little. It sounds to me like deep down he doesn't really believe what he is saying, but is trying desperately to hold onto his belief system--even though he faces lots of evidence he is mistaken about a lot of things. I could be wrong, but I used to make all those same arguments, just as dogmatically, before I realized that so much of what I'd been taught about gay people didn't jibe with the actual people I met, whether family or friebds. If he actully got to know your gay friends, instead of imagining what gay people are likem maybe he'd relate to them better as fellow flawed hunan beings, who may be sinners but no moreso than he is.
Your choices should come from you. Of course it is very important for you to take input from others, especially your loved ones and family. However, remember that in telling him that you are gay, he is faced with a certain amount of cognitive conflict. He can choose to believe to the T what the church says about homosexuality, or he can also be more open and adopt a better sense of empathy. I feel sad that your brother has these stereotypical views of gays. If he knows the kind of good person you are, he would see that there is no such thing as the 'gay religion' and that not everything 'gay' is about sex. Similarly, not all Mormons are polygamists, we dont all have 15 brothers and sisters etc. Those beliefs are streotypes. They are false, and I assure you they will change with time, if he opens his heart. It saddens me that he seems unwilling to put himself in your shoes.
Not long ago, I had feelings that I would never 'fall' away from the church, because I would not let myself. I thought that the only thing that mattered was that when I died, I would have died 'clean'. But, I would have had no real experience of love or companionship. I convinced myself that I was okay with this. But then, someone came into my life and I found that my feelings towards him were pure, they were beautiful, and his were the same for me. To this day those feelings have not diminished. But I did not allow myself to pursue those feelings because of the conflict with my belief in the church. Today I sort of regret that, I might have experienced something so great. But indeed, I was not ready to make a leap. There is a time and a place for everything. There are so many decisions to be made. They are painful, but eventually they have to be made. And it is most important that you make them in honesty, and because they come from your heart.
Brother Tim here:
Rob Adams, helloooo! Why do you think I don't post my name? Am I scared of my identifty being known? Or in some crazy twist of logic, Could it be in an effort to respect my brother's wishes to remain anonymous? Hmmmmmm.
By the way, all of you guys (and some women) that are accusing me of being mean, angry, bitter, and vindictive are thin skinned and too easily offended. Dispute the ideas if you can, but lay off the whining. (One of the few things for which I have no tolerance is whiny people)
And David w/a picture (I can't keep all of you David's straight--no pun intended--we need to organize ourselves better on this blog and start calling you David K., David J., David P.--like we did in gradeschool), thanks for quoting some Mormon leaders. I agree with their thoughts 100%. Their is no tolerance for gay-bashing, or physical or verbal attacks, unChristlike behaviour,etc.
But listen carefully, I have never done that on this blog!!! I am attacking ideas, principles, thoughts, persuasion (no pun intended again), falsehoods, lies, hypocrisy and ever other unholy behaviour. But I do follow the prescriptions of the Saviour--in that I try (honestly) to love others. Ask my brother...Have I ever condemned him. Have I ever verbally or physically assaulted him on this issue--never! But I do follow the example of the Savior when he repeatedly called out "you scribes, pharisees, hypocrites!" and then attacked the hypocrisy of their teachings. He also braided a whip and cleared the temple. PS--exactly where did I say that I was perfect? I'm flattered that I gave you that impression (those that know me including my wife are laughing themselves silly at the notion).
David w/a picture. The war for the souls of men started in the heavens and it is being played out in dramatic fashion here on earth--and I am engaged!
But I will love all I can, and pray for those I can't, until I can!
My brother knows this to be true. I would not be a true brother, friend, or confidant if I just rubber stamped everyone of his decisions, if I did not provide my opinion. Sorry, with my family and close friends, I pull no punches on opinions and positions. Yet believe or not I respect their right to choose and their right to hold those opinions--and love them still the same.
As for quoting from the prophets, I think that is great! Keep on keeping on! You have my blessing. Just don't be so selective if something is said contrary to your opinions. How about quoting the Proclamation on the Family?
Now just one other thought David w/a picture, in spite of you quoting the prophets in your blog, yet in your summary of their thoughts you state that
"[these] doctrines obviously condemn those who engage in so-called “gay bashing”" Wrong, wrong, wrong. We don't condemn people you just said that, remember we condemn the behaviour [and implied love the person].
DCTwistedLIfe:
Your comments regarding empathy and openness are wrong! I can be fully open and have strong opinions. In fact, think about it for a minute. Those that have the strongest, most well-reasoned opinions have considered every possible nuance and rejected those that they believed were incorrect. Yes truth is independent! And no, I don't have to accept opinions and ideas that I have considered and deemed to be false. I am open to a discussion of well-reasoned facts and positions at any time--but you guys on this blog need to realize that I will have my own opinions that will be at odds with you often.
Now, the final thought of the day (whew are you as bored as I am--if you aren't in reading this you should be). Those of you including the Reverend Jesse Jackson (and his $70K / month lover--I'm not referring to Coretta Scott King) that compare the gay movement's plight to that of the civil rights movement are ignorant (please do not be offended, ignorance is the lack of knowledge of a subject--simply defined--don't be so soft skinned). Have you gays ever been denied a seat on a bus? Have you your own set of drinking fountains? How about being denied entrance into that liberal arts school? Slaves? Parents slaves? Have you been bought and sold? What about voting? Ever been denied the right to own property? Etc. etc. etc. The only single denial that you have had is the right to marry other men. But guess what, I can't marry a man either! As a straight man, if I wanted to marry another man for financial or tax reasons--I couldn't either! Hardly a violation of civil rights... The only thing that led to blacks being denied all of these rights and many others was their skin color! There is no moral equivalent between the two struggles.
Trully, with the exception of some in Wyoming and Texas, you really haven't been persecuted much compared to african americans. I do not condone anyone who physically, emotionally, or verbally attacks a gay person for being gay.
So don't confuse my opinions....I know that they are easier to dismiss if you do label me as a homophobe or otherwise---but it wouldn't be truthful!
PS-- I disagree with Jesse Jackson on 99% of issues as it is--so do many african americans.
Good night, time to play with my daughter.............................
Have you gays ever been denied a seat on a bus? Have you your own set of drinking fountains? How about being denied entrance into that liberal arts school? Slaves? Parents slaves? Have you been bought and sold? What about voting? Ever been denied the right to own property? Etc. etc. etc. The only single denial that you have had is the right to marry other men. But guess what, I can't marry a man either! As a straight man, if I wanted to marry another man for financial or tax reasons--I couldn't either! Hardly a violation of civil rights... The only thing that led to blacks being denied all of these rights and many others was their skin color! There is no moral equivalent between the two struggles.
What about the gay couples that have been together for decades? Do they not at least deserve the same financial benefits as you and your wife? What about men who have been denied mortgages? Hotel rooms? Healthcare benefits? Gay men who have been denied access to their partners' hospitals rooms as they are dying? Those arent civil rights violations?
I dont understand your comment about it being okay to not have gay marriage, because you as a straight man can't marry another man? I didn't realize that you wanted to marry a man. Thats exactly the point. You DONT want to marry a man so you don't see it as a violation of rights. If we turned the tables and said, straight people no longer have tax benefits and healthcare benefits because we no longer recognize their love and commitment through each other (for whatever reason), through marriage or whatever, how would you feel? I feel that if you simply dismiss this argument as a 'ridiculous' you are exhibiting the very lack of empathy that you say you possess. Do you really think it is fair to deny people these benefits just because they happen to be of the same sex? I dont understand how their love and commitment is any less valid than yours or any other straight couples.
Tim,
I appreciate your perspectives more than I did earlier today. I honestly think I could have a worthwhile conversation with you in real life. Not that we'd agree on anything necessarily but it would probably be intellectually stimulating.
I don't really have time to read everything on here right now (I've got a Nursing Process Paper I've got to finish) but I did want to post something interesting from the Proclamation on The Family (as you suggested.)
I took a nonmormon gay friend of mine to Temple Square once (he wanted to look at the cute boys mainly) but he noticed something when he read the Proclamation that I hadn't noticed before. I found it to be very interesting wording, which is why I share it here.
"Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ."
That wording has really made me think about things in a broader billions of people on the planet sense.
Tim, it is my sincere desire that you truly gain a better understanding of homosexuality and those that live with it. It does seem like you are attacking some people on here. I'm not saying you are, but that is what it has seemed like to me at different points. I gather that you are defending him and trying to protect him from any number of things you believe to be harmful, but this may be one of those things that you just have to love him unconditionally and trust in the Lord to watch over him in a far better way than you ever could.
Brother Tim here....
DCTwisted...You make my point about the civil rights so clear. You think to confuse healthcare benefits, tax benefits, mortgages, and did you actually say, Hotel rooms? with the right to vote, the right to education, the right to life in oh so many instances, the right to not be owned as a slave, the right to own property--there is not comparison!
Yes you have a struggle as a gay man (if in fact you are a gay man, i've lost track of everyone's sex and sexual orientation--maybe that's the hidden agenda of the gay movement), but do not put it in the same ballpark, arena, stadium, field of play, backlot, or seedy alfalfa field (as we used to play on) as the plight of the african american in the civil rights movement!
This is the type of stuff that personally I think weakens your movement and positions. In future editions of this blog, look for my 10 point list of "what Brother Tim thinks the gay religion should do to become more mainstream and accepted"......
David w/ a picture..I'm glad that you feel we would have a great conversation. I think we would. I truly appreciate witty and well reasoned opinions. I actually like it when someone gets the upper hand on my positions.
Seriously, I would have no problem discussing these items with anybody. You may be surprised at my rather humble, self-depricating manner.
I'm glad that you see some of the humor and entertainment in my blog entries, while acknowledging the diversity of our opinins. And heaven forbid, we may actually agree on something.....
Dear Gay Mormon: I find it amazing that your brother cannot even admit that he attacks people here, puts down gays as a group, tries to paint the worst possible picture of homosexuality. He's the one with the problem, GM, not you. It is people with his kind of backwoods bigotry who make life needlessly harder than it should be for those, like you, whose sexual orientation happens to be gay. You want nothing more than what straight people want in life. Those who seek to deny you your rights are just as narrow minded and mean spirited as those who sought to deny blacks their cvil rights. No one here has said that the black civil rights mvement is exactly the same as the gay civil rights movement. But many black civil rights leaders have acknowledged the parallels, which brother Tim won't even admit exit, and have courageously voiced support for gay rights. Your brother--and others like him who treat gay people as second-class citizens--are the problem. But they are on the wrong side of history. And will look as misguided to coming generations as do those people (including, regretably, many Mormon leaders of that era) who opposed the black civil rights movement in the 1950s and '60s. Utah was very late in supporting civil rights laws for blacks; in the same spirit, Utah is behind the times in supporting gay rights. Your life would be easier if people like your brother were more accepting. But he seems so rigid, I doubt anything anyone says here could soften his heart.
GM, Your brother sounds pretty obnoxious with his denigrating references to "the gay relion." Does he know what the word "religion" means? Is he incapable of using it correctly? Would he be offended if someone said he practiced "the heterosexual religion" instead of saying that he is LDS. Can he not grasp how gay individuals (who may belong to any number of religious faiths, or none) might be equally offended by hearing him say they practce "the gay religion." Is he intentionaally trying to create ill will, contention, or is he simply (as he likes to accuse others here of being "ignorant"?
GM: I have way too much to say about Brother Tim to post it here. Instead, I'm including it on my own blog: Mind of the homophobe - Part 1.
Dear GM: I yearn for the day when this blog goes back to being about YOUR life, not the uninformed rantings of a know-it-all relative of yours. He threatens to post 10 things he thinks "the gay religion should do to become more mainstream." Whhy in the world would any of us want to read his recommendations for the "the gay religion" in a blog about YOUR life? Is he so self-centered to think that any thiughts HE has concerning homosexuality asre of interest here?
Your brother, Gay Mormon, certainly seems highly disturbed by homosexuality. I'd love to know the psychological roots of that. Good luck in your quest to find the same sort of happiness with the person you like or love, as many of us (gay or straight) have found. And good luck to your brother in his search for dealing with his problems with anger and insensitivity. It would be a real breakthrough if he could start treating people simple as people, and drop that unctuous tone that says "I am moral because my orientation is heterosexual; you are beneath me because your orientation is homosexual." As if he had anything to do with picking his sexual orientation. And if he can see that he might have a good reason to post anonymously, why cannot he give the same benefit of the doubt to others who post anonymously? But no, he has to sneer and get snide and imply they are hiding if they don't give their name. Has it ever occurred to him that in a society where gay bashing can have fatal consequences (think of those Mormon fellows ho murderd Matthew Shepherd because he was gay), some gay people do not hoose to come out? In many states gay people still do not have basic civil rights protection (laws saying they cannot lose their jobs or housing because they are gay)? Is he really unable to imagine why some gay people may not want to post their names?
GM, I can guarantee you you will find more happiness in life--at least you have a sense of humor--than your poor, deluded brother will. You'll probably be there for him when his whole world finlly comes crashing down on him. (Sorry, GM, I just couldn't resist that.)
I have to chime in on this one as well. Brother Tim, I applaud you in wanting to support your brother and being their to "pick up the pieces" when his life falls apart, but that's what families (either natural or created) are for. And as another poster indicated, maybe it will be GM that is there to pick up the pieces when your life or the life of one of your siblings fall apart. Believe me, you don't have to be gay to have a life full of trouble and strife.
Like GM, I struggled with being gay and being a Mormon. I, however came out a little differently though. I came out to all my siblings and parents at the same time. I then stepped back and watched family dynamics take place on both sides of this issue. About three weeks later, after many phone calls between family members, they came to me as a supportive unit. In speaking with my family afterwords, they all indicated they had seen lifes of people that were lonely, full of dispair, full of abuse (mostly emotional), etc. that where lifes of people and family members that were trying their best to live by the Church's teachings. As a family, they came to me in a supportative manner. They know that I did NOT chose to be gay and they don't quite understand what that means, but my mother said it best when she said, "I can't imagine one of my children living this life with loneliness and dispair by not being true to themselves. I only want my children to be happy and productive."
I was 29 at the time, a few years later, I met my current partner and we have been together 15 years in a monogamous relationship. He is part of the family and everyone accepts him as such. He is in family pictures, he is known as uncle to my nieces and nephews and he is asked to participate in ALL family events and no one is embarrassed or uncomfortable around him.
The only uncomfort they have is sitting in priesthood meeting, sunday school and sacrament meeting and hearing the hate spewed from the pulpit over the gay issue. That is what brings tears to their eyes, not watching our lifes together.
GM, I have been following your blog for sometime and have made several contributions in the past and have always been supportative in whatever decision you make, but it is beginning to sound like your struggle is not with yourself but with trying to reconcile this with your family. I told my straight brother about this blog and he has been here. His comment to me was...."Tim thinks he knows what is best for GM, but Tim is not the one who will live his life without intimacy, love and partnership... let him give up those parts of his life and see how he survives."
You guys can't take my divergent opinion. I am laughing out loud! You hypocrites! You fein freedom and tolerance, yet listen to yourselves (I am not referring to all contributors). In just 8 short hours I was called all of the following names (i'm still laughing):
-homophobe
-deluded
-disturbed
-insensitive
-angry
-uninformed
-know it all
-obnoxious
-denegrating
-backwoods bigotry
What happened to debate? Name calling--I got beyond that in the 3rd grade. (Some of you have been erudite and intellectual in your counter arguments--that I enjoy--but most have thrown a temper tantrum).
And for the record, I think I have proven my point on the whole civil rights issue....no one has given any meaning rebuttal (intellectually meaningful). Please don't bring up denial to access to hotel rooms anymore--it isn't a compelling argument.
Some have twisted all of my remarks to suggest that I am intolerant! Hah! Hypocrisy! Just face it--many of you can't TOLERATE a different opinion that yours. Many of you are too thin skinned and lack credible rebuttal arguments. Most can't even hear the subtle humor of some of the comments.....
PS--Can anyone prove for me this statement by KC Broadbent "Mormon fellows ho murderd Matthew Shepherd because he was gay" -- I seriously doubt they were Mormon -- but prove me wrong.
Hi GM, WHEW!!!... looks like your Bro Tim has painted himself into a corner. Klansmen will fight their "rightness" just as vigorously. You might suggest he start his own blog where he can always win his arguments. I can't imagine anyone will bother to read them, but you never know. :)
Brother Tim,
You seem to feel the need to declare victory in just about every post. That might be a sign that you're not doing as well as you think.
Cheers,
hurricane
Wendy, you haven't obviously read or listened to my blog comments. I am all for a person having their freedom to choose as long as it doesn't take away from the freedom of the next person (ie. someone killing someone and taking their life away because of his own freedom). On that I think you and I would agree.
You are misinformed if you think that our Church or me does the thinking for my brother. (You obviously don't know him well.)
In fact Gay Mormon, the Mormon Church are I are proponents of freedom of speech, religion, etc. (this gay issue is a freedom of speech issue on many levels).
However, just as you said it comes down to individuals. And Gay Mormon is my brother--an individual....don't try to deny me my right to advocate my beliefs to him and to tackle the rest of your ideas at the same time.
Because, Wendy, from ideas we form principles, from principles, we put our lives into action, and from our actions we reap the consequences--good and bad. I personally don't see happiness in the future of my brother if he fully adopts the gay lifestyle to include gay sex. (I realize that I am now engaging you on a whole different arena from which it might be difficult to discuss--religious morality.)
Debate with reason, facts, and logic--leave the emotions for the emotional!
But why are you so angry and vehement about my opinions?
PS -- Can you think of the state of things if everyone adopted a "pro-whatever floats your boat approach". I hope you were referring to this limited heterosexual/homosexual discussion.
Got to go to work......
DCTwisted...You make my point about the civil rights so clear. You think to confuse healthcare benefits, tax benefits, mortgages, and did you actually say, Hotel rooms? with the right to vote, the right to education, the right to life in oh so many instances, the right to not be owned as a slave, the right to own property--there is not comparison!
On the contrary. There IS a comparison. I will bet you my inheritance that ALL of the things that I mentioned were problems that blacks encountered before and during the civil rights movement. To say that something as simple as not getting basic healthcare benefits is not a civil rights violation is preposterous, and you know it. They were denied access to housing in certain areas. I guarantee you when a gay couple wants to move into a certain neighborhood, there are cases of intentional and covertly keeping gay couples out of this or that neighborhood. Mortgages denied because people cannot buy as a couple because they are unable to be married or at least have the civil rights/ priviliges that married people have. Moreover, you didnt even address my comments on gay marriage / civil unions because you know there is no good social reason to deny gays their RIGHT to be united at least by the state. Yes, I am sure the 'gay religion'(is that a joke by the way?) is a conspiracy to turn the whole world into a bunch of homosexuals.
You want to say, hey gays can vote, they go to school, and they were never enslaved. SO THATS OKAY that all of these other big things that ALSO happened to blacks in the past are now occuring to gays? You may find my comments laughable, but I think in your heart you know that it is not right to deny people these things- even if YOU consider them "small" things. What you take for granted others fight to have every day.
You THINK the idea of not being able to get a hotel room is not a big deal. But it is EXACTLY the kind of thing YOU as a straight man take for granted. Its something you can do and it doesnt even cross your mind that someone else cant. And that actually proves MY point. That people's SIMPLEST rights are the ones that are being denied. Blacks were not allowed into restauraunts. Similarly, many cases of two men wanting to get a hotel room together, and having that be denied are out there. Something YOU take for granted is something that gays have to deal with every day because of discrimination.
You refuse to see the other side of the coin because it destabilizes your whole point of view. It worries you because you are affected by your brother's choices. In reality you are afraid for him, and for yourself because as much as you think your views could never be changed, they are being questioned now. What if- *gasp*- the mormon way is not the only way? I think of it as a reaction formation...
Brother Tim's comment: "Debate with reason, facts, and logic--leave the emotions for the emotional!"
What exactly does that mean Tim? This debate IS emotional. You yourself have expressed very strong emotions as a component to your position (i.e. your great love for your brother and your apparent disdain toward gay behavior and, to use your words, the "gay religion"). At the heart of your brother's struggles are his emotions. It is quite understandable for visitors on this blog to react emotionally to your critical comments about the homosexual culture, just as you have reacted with strong emotions to critical comments about your religious culture.
I find it interesting that you often weave into your arguments assumptions about the emotional state of those with whom you disagree - calling them "scared," accusing them of having "obvious anger" and being "miserable," and most recently, accusing Wendy of being "angry and vehement." How do you know the emotional state of these people? Are you making inferences from the tone of their posts? The sarcastic, critical, and dismissive tone of own posts exudes at least as much emotion as those by posters that you criticize. Perhaps you should stop employing this form of name-calling (a misleading argument technique that you claim you "got beyond in 3rd grade"), and just accept that this is a very emotional issue for many who post here, including your brother, those who relate to his struggles, and yourself. Emotions are ok.
Philip
Dear Gay Mormon: Your brother says he loves you. Well, talk is cheap. Is he willing to put his money where his mouth is? Is he willing to support laws that will guarantee you civil rights potection so that you can't be denied a job because of sexul housing, that you can't be denied housing because of sexul orientation, that yo will be ble to have a committed life-partner inherrit a lease (the way a heterosexual spouse cn) or visit yo in a hospital hen visitatioon is fo "family" only, or make medical decisions fo you? Does he love you nough to want you to have the same opprtunities and legal protections, the same rights and responsibilities regarding your significant other someday that a straight person would have? Is he willing to donate money to change laws so that sexual orientation is added to the protected categories (like "race" and religion") eveywhere? Or is he--just like the segregationists in the old days--more in favor of laws that give him more rights than you, and make you second-class. Your brother loves to talk. And he loves to lecture us on civil rights (he seems sort of conceited, imagining he is th only one who knows those obvious historical facts he lectures us on). What does he want to do to get YOU, the gay brother he loves, more equal rights?
Dear GM: If you want to do your self-righteous brother a favor, buy him a copy of some book like "How to Win Friends and Influnc People." Or see if his Home Teacher can discuss the concept of humility with him. All he can see is name calling aimed at him for no reason. It doesn't occur to him that there might be something he is doing that is making other people perceive him as intentionally contentious, insensitive, obnoxious, full of himself, holier-than-thou, angry, etc. He would rather come here and call everyone else hypocrites, and say he is only doing what Jesus would do. Wow! Guidance from your brother. He's almost the same as Jesus, I guess. Abd he can't imagione how, in anmy way, his manner might be consideted even a little off-putting to some of the people he is trying to persuade.
Dear John J.,
GM's brother doesn't need a copy of "How to Win Friends and Influence People." He's not writing here to gain friends. He says he's here to help his brother, which is
a worthy cause. But I think he got a little distracted with the challenge and excitement of the debate. I mean, know that he says that he gets bored, but he seems to really like the back and forth dialogue. I can tell that he likes to have a good and solid debate with people, and it seems like that is what he is doing.
I myself am not the most humble guy so I can't really call him out on his lack of humility. But what I can say is that he is getting sidetracked. I feel like he has a need to retaliate and get angry for the pain that he sees his brother going through. Since there is no obvious culprit, the gay community and all it's negative stereotypes is an easy target. I don't know, it's just an observation. Am I wrong in saying that Brother Tim?
And another thing, I disagree with what you said about Brother Tim not being considerate of the fact that he might be or appear "a little off-putting to some of the people he is trying to persuade", because that is in fact exactly what I think he is trying to do at this point. He likes arguing his beliefs, it's as simple as that.
This is a hard issue, it's not easy, and as we can see from both sides of the debate that there are a lot of emotions and ideas that are very sensitive to both parties.
I wish GM luck, I want to hear more from him, but I also appreciate what Brother Tim has to say. Even if Brother Tim's comments are a little angry and argumentative for the sake of arguing, I would still feel lucky to have such a present and attentive brother as he is being to GM.
I truly think that Brother Tim should have his own blog. He's already written enough for a month's worth of entries so far. His voice is important in this debate. I know that at times he seems desperately seeking to intentionally hurt those not of his beliefs, and uncaring of his brother's original vision for this blog, but the Family members of Gay Mormons of Gay whoever's have equally important things to say.
GM: So now your rather domineering older brother wishes to dictate not only how you behave, but how people posting comments here behave. He thinks it is perfectly fine for him to call posters names like "whiny," but objects when they call him names like "bossy." He can dish it out, but he can't take it. I wonder what his Bishop would say if he showed all of his endless postings here. I know that if I were his Biship (an exhausting job, I suspect), I'd be encouraging him to pray on hether publcally belitting his brother and his brother's supporters is really the best way to influence anyone.
Brother Tim here....
Wendy you are so quick to attack everything that I say, you should have realized with the freedom of speech (or expression if that helps) comment, I was actually conceding a point. Yet, I laugh, that you were suspicious.....
PS -- Wendy, you got it wrong (and some of you may actually agree) I don't care if I don't speak my opinions to those I love on matters of grand importance. Would you hand your 19 year old daughter a box of condoms and wish her well if she decided she wanted to turn tricks? Silly huh...
I find it hilarious that the same crowd (not all of you) while attacking the Mormon Church actually try to persuade me that I am not following their council by expressing my views and opinions. (I'll schedule an appointment with my Bishop as soon as I post this blog)
Some of you are so fragile that you can't even see the subtle humor of some of my remarks. I truly believe that some of you are offended at my remarks. I am a fairly anonymous blogger, with absolutely no bearing on your life's course; yet strangely you get upset and angry? Where is your self-esteem? Others I must admit are fairly cool-headed (yet often very dismissive) in their debate approach. You got to respect that....
Now, Orson, please explain to me how you as a gay man are denied any civil rights by our great Constitution more than me as a straight man (Now everybody else, please raise your hand and wait your turn this is Orson's question).
Good night.
Brother Tim said...
"I personally don't see happiness in the future of my brother if he fully adopts the gay lifestyle to include gay sex."
Nobody commented on this. Tim, I presume you enjoy sex with someone you love; your wife. God made it enjoyable, no? Why would you want to implicitly deny GM the joy of sex with someone he loves; his male partner?
--BB
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